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Old 08-28-2007, 09:50 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by RT76 View Post
This debate has and will continue for about another 2 years or so when there are no more brushed motors.
You think brush 27T will even be around next summer ?

No way !
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Old 08-28-2007, 09:54 AM   #32
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Most people at my local track run the Novak 13.5 SS BL systems. The fast guys can still beat most people regardless if they use a 27T or a 13.5T. Are they equal, not really, but close enough that the 13.5 BL does not have a distinct advantage in lap times.

Positive side - last weeks race we all had 13.5 BL motors, and the racing was as close as I've seen it in a long long time. The 13.5 has really taken away the "motor advantage" and leveled off the field, kinda like Nascar restrictor plate super speedway racing. All boils down to the driver, car, tires, and setup now....

One disadvantage I have found is that the 13.5 BL motor is a little tougher on tires and diffs. The extra torque is really forcing the tires to give everything they can on quick accelerations out of corners, and the diffs need to be run tighter to survive and keep from spinning.

On a side note - This argument (27T vs 13.5T BL) reminds me of the ongoing Superbike engine argument regarding the Ducati V-Twin and the 1000cc 4-cylinder. Basically the 13.5 BL motor is the V-Twin (less rpm more torque), while the 27T motor is the 1000cc 4-cylinder (more rpm less torque). The V-Twin has to use taller gearing to take advantage of the torque, while the 1000cc 4-cyl needs closer/shorter gearing to use the rpm advantage.

I run at the same track and I agree, most are pretty even. I do have one 13.5 that is much faster and I would guess that now with a setup, most of the guys would have a problem if I were to run it in stock.

in 1/12 there is no way it is a stock class. It is really close to 19t and probably could run the same. it is a little slower down the straight, but in the corners, it is a screamer. it 1/12 i would rather be fast in the corners then in a straight line.
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:02 AM   #33
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The 13.5 is not comparible to stock motors? Most stock motors vary in speed from brand x to brand y
I think so with Francis, but on the brushed stock have also difference, even on the same brand with different type of brushes, maybe not so wider as brushless ones(I didn't confirm yet).
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:11 AM   #34
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One of the reasons is that not every manufacturer is currently making a brush/brushless system, so it does limit peoples options.
I thought the shortage of options would be a problem too, but after running what I could, I am more than happy. It will be even sweeter when everyone has a quality product out and we can all agree on what a fair standard is. Comparing apples to oranges right now is killing us. If 13.5 is stamped "brushless stock" tomorrow, who cares how it matches up next to a 27t brushed? It isn't the same thing. Running them together and having every brushed guy _itching about it does nothing for us but hold us back. There are a ton of 13.5 racers out there that are ready to done with all this. Let's stop tippy-toeing around go race.

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Old 08-28-2007, 10:15 AM   #35
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I remember back in the day of a spec motor for rookies that was 10$ I think its still around the old kyosho yellow spec can. Run that for rookies, still fun, still racing, and teaches to race not who has more power. Brushed is almost a thing of the past. If your racing in stock or 19t you obviously are willing to invest money; well if brushless was more accepted, setup,driving and tires (which I think should be spec but thats my opinion) would be of the issue. And really isnt that what wins races?
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:17 AM   #36
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i would say allow them to run the brushless stock motors with the regulars because even though they are a little faster it really helps the guys that pay for all their batteries and stuff because you dont have to have the $100 dollar top of the line race packs to compete for the win and who wants to buy 2 or 3 stock motors at a time just to find that one good one?? i can attest to this because this past weekend i ran a novak 10.5 with 3+ year old batteries and my car was still a land rocket. i didnt have to worry about getting new batteries or buying a few different brushes and cutting the motor after a few runs so it was awesome to just worry about car setup for one rather than "my motors falling off must need to be cut"

i know it is a big expense at first but i think it will really help get touring car back on its feet just like it will help electric off-raod racing as well. guys nowadays want to run for 10 15 minutes at a time as fast as possible rather than the 7 or 8 you would get out of a brushed motor and less inclined motor tuners it brings racing back to driving skill rather than who has the best motor. ive personally been to too many on-road races that were decided more on motor than driving ability persae just my opinion
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Old 08-28-2007, 10:41 AM   #37
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i would say allow them to run the brushless stock motors with the regulars because even though they are a little faster it really helps the guys that pay for all their batteries and stuff because you dont have to have the $100 dollar top of the line race packs to compete for the win and who wants to buy 2 or 3 stock motors at a time just to find that one good one?? i can attest to this because this past weekend i ran a novak 10.5 with 3+ year old batteries and my car was still a land rocket. i didnt have to worry about getting new batteries or buying a few different brushes and cutting the motor after a few runs so it was awesome to just worry about car setup for one rather than "my motors falling off must need to be cut"

i know it is a big expense at first but i think it will really help get touring car back on its feet just like it will help electric off-raod racing as well. guys nowadays want to run for 10 15 minutes at a time as fast as possible rather than the 7 or 8 you would get out of a brushed motor and less inclined motor tuners it brings racing back to driving skill rather than who has the best motor. ive personally been to too many on-road races that were decided more on motor than driving ability persae just my opinion

WOW took the words right out of my mouth

the simple way 2 look at brushless racing is (as of right now) most everyon is running the novak 13.5 (i know not everon is but the races i went 2 they were) so all the cars are technically the same speed so it lets the true drivers show it also tests how well you can set up you ride.
I myself would rather play with the suspention and different setups all day then spend the time between rounds cutting and rebuilding motors.

Brushless will take over and draw in more racers that just love 2 race and not worry about abything else
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:06 AM   #38
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WOW took the words right out of my mouth

the simple way 2 look at brushless racing is (as of right now) most everyon is running the novak 13.5 (i know not everon is but the races i went 2 they were) so all the cars are technically the same speed so it lets the true drivers show it also tests how well you can set up you ride.
I myself would rather play with the suspention and different setups all day then spend the time between rounds cutting and rebuilding motors.

Brushless will take over and draw in more racers that just love 2 race and not worry about abything else
All brushless are not the same speed. There is a very large performance difference between different rotors.

And isnt tuning your car part of racing?
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Old 08-28-2007, 11:48 AM   #39
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I don't why its really an issue (brushed vs brushless) because all of the latest generations of escs like the GTBs and Spheres escs can easily run both. Even the new Novak XBR escs can run brushed motor (no limit) and can be bought for under $130. The XBR and 13.5 brushless motor system are only $180 dollars.
I sure hope Novak will come out with the XBR/17.5 package. I think that would be a big seller for stock class racing on and off-road. Maybe even price it a tad cheaper than the XBR 13.5/10.5/8.5 packages.
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Old 08-28-2007, 12:05 PM   #40
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Brushed and brushless on the track at the same time. You will notice that the brushless motors are much faster coming out of the corner and in the hands of stock racers will cause some problems due to them raming the person in front of them who is using a brushed motor. One way to solve the difference in runtime and maintanance is to allow the brushed motors to use bearings too. This will increase the low end performance of the brushed motors because they wont have to overcome the drag of the bushings. Test it for yourselves a bearing brushed motor is much closer in performance to the 13.5 motors.
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Old 08-28-2007, 01:21 PM   #41
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RT76- what do you mean? are you talking a Novak 13.5 as compared to an LRP 13.5? or the old rotor compared to the new novak sintere rotor? and yes tuning your car is a part of racing but having the "luck of the draw" with motors sucks. and the brushless stuff is virtually maintenance free. i guess more simply put it levels the playing field a little bit too. no harm intended just conversational purposes

Aaron- i thought the 13.5 is the equivalent of stock? why would you want the 17.5?

exterminator- i agree with you on the bearings if thats the case(i personally have not tried it) but i do not agree with you about causing problems with people hitting others because the motor has more coming out of the corner thats just part of driving but i good point with the bearings
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Old 08-28-2007, 02:43 PM   #42
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Aaron- i thought the 13.5 is the equivalent of stock? why would you want the 17.5?
The 17.5 will closer resemble a brushed stock motor right? Isn't that the whole reason for Novak to market it? I've seen it on some oval-related online storefronts already but I am unsure if it's true availability. What am I missing?
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Old 08-28-2007, 03:05 PM   #43
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RT76- what do you mean? are you talking a Novak 13.5 as compared to an LRP 13.5? or the old rotor compared to the new novak sintere rotor? and yes tuning your car is a part of racing but having the "luck of the draw" with motors sucks. and the brushless stuff is virtually maintenance free. i guess more simply put it levels the playing field a little bit too. no harm intended just conversational purposes
There is a major performance difference between different rotors (13mm, bonded, sintered) used by the same brand. So in theory it levels the playing field but not on the track.

No harm taken but let me ask you this. How boring would Nascar or CART be with no maintenance?

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Old 08-28-2007, 03:17 PM   #44
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The 17.5 will closer resemble a brushed stock motor right? Isn't that the whole reason for Novak to market it? I've seen it on some oval-related online storefronts already but I am unsure if it's true availability. What am I missing?
The 13.5T motors are often too fast for new racers. Novak is offering the 17.5T SS Pro for that group of users.

The 17.5Ts are now available through all Novak distributors.
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Old 08-28-2007, 03:45 PM   #45
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rt76- your right brother maintance is definitly a part of it but im one of those guys who comes out of on-road retirment every once in a while and ends up getting smoked!! not because of driving but just because im down on power. you on-road guys are awesome for getting the most out of what you got thats for sure but this lastweekend when i ran on-raod the novak brushless 10.5 took that disadvantage away and brought it back to flat driving that and i just loved the fact that i put 20 batteries through my TC5 and didnt have to take the motor out once but i understand where you are coming from
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