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Old 08-09-2007, 01:31 AM   #16
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We have been running the 13.5 Novak with bonded rotor only with teh stock class for over a year now and there is absolutely no problem, the lap times are identical and they race together well. When we tried a sintered rotor it was way faster than teh best brushed stock.

If we don't find a way to run them together and make a seperate class for brushless then teh brushed class will die, best to let people who like both race together and save both types.
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Old 08-09-2007, 01:55 AM   #17
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It's rare to see anybody running a brushed stock motor 'round here. It requires too much working (constant cutting and rebrushing) to keep it close with the 13.5's. Nobody is doing it anymore, and nobody is complaining about it. We started out mixed, but it didn't take long for people to realize it was silly to spend so much time on motors, especially in club racing.

The 13.5 is a bit faster, but it's close enough in most cases. It made the racing better with our local hotshot, but he got tired of cutting comms every race to keep up, and went to the 13.5. I think he actually kind of likes it. :-)
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Old 08-09-2007, 02:19 AM   #18
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I agree with Syndrome - if you create the class and give drivers a choice, it will sort itself out. Drivers will vote with their feet (or wallet!) and go to the class that suits them.

Best option IMHO is to race the cars together, but with two separate classes for finals and points. Drivers can continue to choose, and they will still be racing with those who run the same track speed. Don't ditch the 27T class, as this is how new drivers enter the sport. If you run exclusively BL, then new drivers won't come into your Club.

Also, try to find a BL Spec that allows all the motors in, not just those on the ROAR specification. Castle Creations and Tekin make some very cost-effective BL motors, and this makes it easier for everyone to change over. If you stick to LRP/Novak BL, then the cost will put people off, and you may lose Club members with RTR BR motors who want to race, but are not keen on being thrashed by the BL motors. It makes more sense for Club membership to say that the LRP and Novak 13.5 and Tekin Redline are allowed, than to try and focus on one (expensive) motor. Make sure new motors from (say) Castle can come in too.

In the long run, once a BL spec has been found to replace 27T and 19T it will return the class to what is was - a test of driver skill. With the latest batteries and speedos, it has become a test of motor building skill. BL for the Stock classes has a great future, but don't forget to have a class for the BR motors too, as this is where all your new drivers will start. HTH
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Old 08-09-2007, 10:52 PM   #19
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I really thank all you guys for your time and efforts in this. My real concern is keeping it fair especially for the new comers. Those who want to go fast will always open the wallet and pay for what ever they need. I just want it to be fair. I like the idea of no maintance but just don't want the kids and newbys to shy away..]
THanks Mike
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Old 08-09-2007, 11:03 PM   #20
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Originally Posted by pumbaapig5 View Post
Hey guy's I posted this just to get some fresh input,, Our club currently is letting the brushless run with the stocks as a trial on the dirt oval track. I have noticed that the same fast guys are still winning, but now they use a brushless to save on maintance.. I just can't help but feel that if it passes club wide than the rookie class will suffer when certain people outfit there cars or kids cars with one.. Just not very fair to the people that come to the track just to have fun..
I know it's a race but there are actually some families that come to our track just to have fun.. We race every friday and average 60 racers a week. For just a little club I am worried about the little guys.
Thanks For the input.
Mike

well reading your post, you say, the guys that were winning are still winning with the brushless, so thats already been decided sounds like to me, the rookie class reference doesn't make sense to me, if some put the brushless in how does that effect the others, you said they are there just for fun, so having a brushless system and winning shouldn't matter to them. they are there for the fun, you guys have one of the most sucessful clubs in the state, you decisions have been proven to work, i'm sure the club will do the right thing, i might be up there this week if randy comes up again, i see about a ride with him, You still have the rentals?? and they are insured right
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Old 08-10-2007, 12:03 AM   #21
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At my track a lot (most) of guys are running brushless as the stock class. Only one guy , who happens to be a motor tuner, can keep up with them and he even says they have a clear advantage in the corners.
For me, its a money thing. I like brushless, i think its the future, i can and am willing to accept it. Right now I cant really afford another $200 plus bucks to spend just to keep up. Its sort of pointless running my car with all the other guys who have the money to spend on new stuff.
The old 13.5 was faster than most stock motors (im talking the "average" guy). The new ones with the sintered rotors are way fast and imo are not equal to a stock brushed motor. Also the way people are gearing these things makes it harder for a brushed to keep up.
I plan on getting a bl system, kinda wish they would just make one type of motor, which im hoping is the 13.5 ss now, and keep it that way for a bit. I dont care who makes it but make "one" specific type of bl "stock" motor for awhile and let it grow.
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Old 08-28-2007, 05:32 AM   #22
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where I race, a lot of people seem "scared" of brushless even with all the + things that come with it.
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Old 08-28-2007, 07:06 AM   #23
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Default A cost factor

If we want racing to grow there has to be a place for the new racers to
start. Look at the price of brushless and tell me it would not hinder a new
racer from entering into a racing. Not everybody can afford the
$200-$300 for a brushless system. Even a established racer on a budget
will have a hard time justifying that expense.
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Old 08-28-2007, 07:07 AM   #24
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Most people at my local track run the Novak 13.5 SS BL systems. The fast guys can still beat most people regardless if they use a 27T or a 13.5T. Are they equal, not really, but close enough that the 13.5 BL does not have a distinct advantage in lap times.

Positive side - last weeks race we all had 13.5 BL motors, and the racing was as close as I've seen it in a long long time. The 13.5 has really taken away the "motor advantage" and leveled off the field, kinda like Nascar restrictor plate super speedway racing. All boils down to the driver, car, tires, and setup now....

One disadvantage I have found is that the 13.5 BL motor is a little tougher on tires and diffs. The extra torque is really forcing the tires to give everything they can on quick accelerations out of corners, and the diffs need to be run tighter to survive and keep from spinning.

On a side note - This argument (27T vs 13.5T BL) reminds me of the ongoing Superbike engine argument regarding the Ducati V-Twin and the 1000cc 4-cylinder. Basically the 13.5 BL motor is the V-Twin (less rpm more torque), while the 27T motor is the 1000cc 4-cylinder (more rpm less torque). The V-Twin has to use taller gearing to take advantage of the torque, while the 1000cc 4-cyl needs closer/shorter gearing to use the rpm advantage.
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Old 08-28-2007, 08:17 AM   #25
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This debate has and will continue for about another 2 years or so when there are no more brushed motors.

I had to race in the brushless class on Sunday because there was no one signed up for a brushed class. I can't say if it was faster or slower better or worse but I do know brushless has a huge advantage on and off the track.
Stock brushed motors have bushings, brushless bearings...The stock racer who actually takes the time to tune a motor to go fast comes off the track and works on his car and his MOTOR.

We have already seen a decline in racers, why? If they didnít spend the money on a brushless system they are not competitive, brushless class runs for 8 minutes, try that with a 27t. So the brushed guy doesnít bother coming if he knows he's not competitive.

Whatís this do for the future of RC? For now until everyone is running the same stuff, attendance will be down small motor tuning companies will go out of business, major motor producers will not make money , maybe not enough to stay in business until this brushed, brushless war sorts itself out.

On a side note: I drive 3 1/2 hours to race with this club and they have the best club races I have ever seen. 60 people for a club race. The other tracks in the area will be lucky to get 20.. Should tell you something...
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Old 08-28-2007, 08:34 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pumbaapig5 View Post
I really thank all you guys for your time and efforts in this. My real concern is keeping it fair especially for the new comers. Those who want to go fast will always open the wallet and pay for what ever they need. I just want it to be fair. I like the idea of no maintance but just don't want the kids and newbys to shy away..]
THanks Mike
Any understanding newcomer will realise they wont be as fast as the more experienced, with time they'll make the A at club level if they wise up.

Racing isnt for someone who cannot admit defeat. They just need a little bit of guidance like we all did when we started out, and any good club offers that already

Winnings winning so the saying goes. Even if its a lower final its still an achievement

The rest is up to their own desire and how far they want to take things.

Brushless with brushed? Why not. (unless you get one person winning by laps everytime.... thats not racing, thats just a farce).
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Old 08-28-2007, 09:13 AM   #27
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The 13.5 is not comparible to stock motors? Most stock motors vary in speed from brand x to brand y
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Old 08-28-2007, 09:19 AM   #28
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The 13.5 is not comparible to stock motors? Most stock motors vary in speed from brand x to brand y
Very true, although 15.5 could be a bit closer
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Old 08-28-2007, 09:28 AM   #29
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I don't why its really an issue (brushed vs brushless) because all of the latest generations of escs like the GTBs and Spheres escs can easily run both. Even the new Novak XBR escs can run brushed motor (no limit) and can be bought for under $130. The XBR and 13.5 brushless motor system are only $180 dollars.

The least expensive part of racing is now the esc and motors. Your car and radio and charger/batteries and tires will all cost 2-3 times more over the course of a season.

So why not be flexible and have both brushed and brushless motors ready to go depending on which club your racing at.
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Old 08-28-2007, 09:42 AM   #30
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I don't why its really an issue (brushed vs brushless) because all of the latest generations of escs like the GTBs and Spheres escs can easily run both. Even the new Novak XBR escs can run brushed motor (no limit) and can be bought for under $130. The XBR and 13.5 brushless motor system are only $180 dollars.

The least expensive part of racing is now the esc and motors. Your car and radio and charger/batteries and tires will all cost 2-3 times more over the course of a season.

So why not be flexible and have both brushed and brushless motors ready to go depending on which club your racing at.
One of the reasons is that not every manufacturer is currently making a brush/brushless system, so it does limit peoples options.
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