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Old 07-20-2009, 09:21 PM   #766
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I have tried the new Tekin out. I have one unexplained shuttoff to report. It may have been a radio glitch but I think it was a thermal shutdown at the end of the straight. I have turned the amp setting down one notch.
I'm not sure how closely you follow the Tekin threads, but they recommend 2 caps for mod touring. Do that and you probably won't be able to thermal it.
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Old 07-20-2009, 10:39 PM   #767
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Thanks. I will give it a try tomorrow with the exact same setup but a bigger Novak cap.
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Old 07-21-2009, 01:30 AM   #768
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I have not tried the car with the revised top deck yet.
John, I wait for your test and maybe you can do autocad (dxf or dwg) file for it ?

If not, just scan in 1:1 and send jpg, I will do it

Regards!

m.

ps: from asso 12L4 or 10R5 pivot ball with housing should work fine too
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Old 07-21-2009, 07:36 PM   #769
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John thanks for your help i will try going a little heavier on the shock oil first and go from there.
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Old 07-21-2009, 08:22 PM   #770
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M.Abramowics and all- I will do a dimensioned drawing with pic in a day or so.

There is little extra room for the Associated style pivot plastic without extensive cutting. Use the CRC pivot plastic which is a two legged piece.


Top Strap Mod
The top strap mod was a huge success. Rarely do you do a mod to a car and get more than just a little improvement. The car was hooked up well today. It had no ill manners. The improvement on the sweeper was very good, I expected little gain there, but was shown wrong.

TEKIN capacitor
Note I ran a 3.5 LRP X12 with the Tekin RS Pro. We had hot 93 F temperatures but not super hot like in June. The Tekin was only 125-140 F after 6 minute runs. The big power cap must have helped. I used Spektrum glitch preventer capacitor 4700 micro Farad. Novak sells similar and even one double this size.


Internal motor fan
I'll note this little job without picture as it is hard to do and requires a precision lathe. I put a little fan inside the pinion end of the X12 3.5. This motor is powerful at 760 W measured on my dyno. Second in power only to an early model HV Novak 3.5 which went 810 W. The LRP in spite of vents had been running a little hot in the wide pan car. 187 F. I took a 26 tooth 48 pitch Black hard coated Aluminum pinion from Robinson Racing to make an internal fan. I bored the hole out to .198. This was impossible to do concentrically until I used the lathe. The hard coat interferes a lot with the bits ability to stay centered. I used a fat center drill first that went to maybe 80% depth and then finished with a Cobalt drill. I drilled and taped a second set screw hole for balance and lightening. I pressed the pinion onto the X12 shaft with a vise and socket, set screw side first, using red High temp loctite to secure it. I narrowed the teeth to just clear the coils solder ring. It ended up about 3/64 wide. I turned the pressed on stub round for better balance. I tested. Not much air flow. I took it out and cut slots in the outer ring at an angle to the rotation. The point of the slot must lead the rotation (seems backward but is not, look at any AC blower) I enlarged the slot at the coil side with a diamond encrusted point tool in the Dremmel. I got a nice air flow now. I cleaned up the slots some more with the diamond tool and enlarged the holes in the can with the same tool. I tested without blow cleaning on purpose and got a nice big cloud of debris expand out of the motor on the first run. I was pleased. The motor temped only 150 for each of 3 six minute runs. It is running about 30 degrees cooler than before. Speed Passion sells a optional motor rotor with an included fan in about the same place on the motor. Since you can buy it ready made, I can run it with clear conscience. It ran in good balance and blew about as much air as one of the electric fans, but in a more useful place. Hot air out the front. Cool air in the back.

Wrap that power cap full circle with servo tape until sticky touches sticky. Narow it if you wish. This way the thing will stay put. Solder close to the power tabs on the Tekin. I removed most of the harness on this power cap. They do have a minus side which was brown on this haness.
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Last edited by John Stranahan; 07-22-2009 at 08:28 AM.
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Old 07-23-2009, 05:11 AM   #771
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Hi John, great work on the cooling and flex adjustment as always.

However I was wondering if I could pick your brains about something else - Delta wind motors.

My knowledge of them is limited to what I could find online regarding industrial motors. I think all winds that are not 'half winds' are delta wind. I.e. a 4.0, 5.0, 6.0 are delta and 4.5, 5,5, 6.5 etc are Y-winds.

I know you have recently said that you preferred the 4.0 turn motor to the 3.5 for some reasons, I think motor temperature was one of them. 'They' claim Delta winds run cooler so this may be the reason.

It is claimed that a delta wind motor will have 1.73 (Square root of 3) times as much power as a similar Y-wind, due to higher revs and current draw. The trade-off is less torque.

I am no expert but if I review that statement, it seems that you trade current draw (essentially unimportant with new high capacity batteries) for RPM, hence power and speed. Great!

The Y-winds have more torque, but torque is just a number, until you combine it with RPM, power is what makes the car go faster.

If I think about it then, a 6.0 turn delta wind should be far superior to a 5.5 turn Y-wind.

I am fairly certain that I am wrong though, but can't think why. Perhaps your experience between the 3.5 and 4.0 turn motors can shed some light on the performance differences.

Also, do you have to gear a delta wind differently, since it is tuned for more RPMs compared to standard Y-wind?

Regards

Neal
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:26 AM   #772
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redwood View Post
Hi John, great work on the cooling and flex adjustment as always.

However I was wondering if I could pick your brains about something else - Delta wind motors.

My knowledge of them is limited to what I could find online regarding industrial motors. I think all winds that are not 'half winds' are delta wind. I.e. a 4.0, 5.0, 6.0 are delta and 4.5, 5,5, 6.5 etc are Y-winds.

I know you have recently said that you preferred the 4.0 turn motor to the 3.5 for some reasons, I think motor temperature was one of them. 'They' claim Delta winds run cooler so this may be the reason.

It is claimed that a delta wind motor will have 1.73 (Square root of 3) times as much power as a similar Y-wind, due to higher revs and current draw. The trade-off is less torque.

I am no expert but if I review that statement, it seems that you trade current draw (essentially unimportant with new high capacity batteries) for RPM, hence power and speed. Great!

The Y-winds have more torque, but torque is just a number, until you combine it with RPM, power is what makes the car go faster.

If I think about it then, a 6.0 turn delta wind should be far superior to a 5.5 turn Y-wind.

I am fairly certain that I am wrong though, but can't think why. Perhaps your experience between the 3.5 and 4.0 turn motors can shed some light on the performance differences.

Also, do you have to gear a delta wind differently, since it is tuned for more RPMs compared to standard Y-wind?

Regards

Neal
7 delta is about 4.5 star. Delta is more efficient usually, has more agressive torque and power curves.
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Old 07-23-2009, 09:37 PM   #773
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Redman-That is a meaty question indeed. First some track reports. The X12 3.5 from LRP and the x12 4.0 from LRP both have seen considerable track time in my TC5. It is not possible that there is a 1.7 factor power difference in these two winds. In fact the 4.0 has the subtle changes that you would expect of a motor that is the same in every way except 1/2 wind less. It is slightly less powerfull. Its peak power is a slightly less RPM. It is slightly more punchy. It runs slightly cooler. Then if you go to a Novak 4.5 all this progresses in a rather orderly fasion in the same direction.

We had quite a discussion of y vs delta winds on the Pantoura thread. V12 seemed to be most enlightened on the subject. I just cannot imagine a 1.7 power increase in just changing delta to y winds. Why in the world would we ever use the weaker wind.

If I have time I will search for the discussion as the type of winds were described in detail and even to the point where the number and location of solder rings were discussed to make even turned Y winds. I think something is awry with your factors. Maybe my track tests will shed some light on this. I don't know if they ever got the thread search function to actually work again. I'll see on the Pantoura thread.
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Old 07-24-2009, 12:17 AM   #774
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John,

maybe you can do on cnc machine your new top deck and sell it ?
after tests ?

Regards!

m.
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Old 07-24-2009, 04:18 AM   #775
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
Redman-That is a meaty question indeed. First some track reports. The X12 3.5 from LRP and the x12 4.0 from LRP both have seen considerable track time in my TC5. It is not possible that there is a 1.7 factor power difference in these two winds. In fact the 4.0 has the subtle changes that you would expect of a motor that is the same in every way except 1/2 wind less. It is slightly less powerfull. Its peak power is a slightly less RPM. It is slightly more punchy. It runs slightly cooler. Then if you go to a Novak 4.5 all this progresses in a rather orderly fasion in the same direction.

We had quite a discussion of y vs delta winds on the Pantoura thread. V12 seemed to be most enlightened on the subject. I just cannot imagine a 1.7 power increase in just changing delta to y winds. Why in the world would we ever use the weaker wind.

If I have time I will search for the discussion as the type of winds were described in detail and even to the point where the number and location of solder rings were discussed to make even turned Y winds. I think something is awry with your factors. Maybe my track tests will shed some light on this. I don't know if they ever got the thread search function to actually work again. I'll see on the Pantoura thread.
Thanks John,

It seems most likely that if you can produce an even turn Y-wind then this is what LRP are doing. I looked at the specs of the motors in the X12 range and they seem to increase steadily and continuously as they increase winds.

I will search the whole pantoura thread if necessary, hopefully it won't take too long.

Regards

Neal
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Old 07-28-2009, 01:24 PM   #776
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Neal-Thanks. I wish those thread search tools worked like they used too but they seem to be broken.

Here is a pic of the top strap with swivel off the car. The ruler provides scale. I'll put some dimensions on this scan after a day or so.
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Old 07-28-2009, 02:08 PM   #777
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Anyone knows how about flex in offroad? Should it be more or less? Everyone talks about asphalt, how about rally cars? Some people here use tc5 and tc4 for it...
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Old 07-28-2009, 02:50 PM   #778
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I found a little info in a thread called something like 'Sensored vs sensorless' from some years back.

There was a claim that the even wind LRP motors were higher wind deltas, so that a '4.0' was actually a 7 delta. However, Burito, who works for LRP I believe said that all of their motors are Y-wind, including the even turns.

This explains what you report regarding your 4.0 performace being right in the middle of the 3.5 and 4.5.

My initial interest was because here in Scotland we run 5 cell open mod, or Lipo mod with a 6.5T motor limit. So I wondered if a 7T delta is legal with Lipo, and/or faster. General concensus is that a delta is equivalent to 1.73 MORE turns in a Y-wind, so I recon a 7T is out. The equivalent according to that factor is a 12T delta, and as far as I know they don't make them with that high a wind. Was interesting while it lasted.

Regards

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Old 07-28-2009, 02:54 PM   #779
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12delta windgs is a little but too low I think, thare are such:

http://shop.graupner.de/webuerp/serv...11&language=de

http://shop.graupner.de/webuerp/servlet/AI?ARTN=97262
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Old 07-28-2009, 03:05 PM   #780
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Dear Neal,

same problem was in Poland, 1st rule said for spec class we can use 9.5T and 5 cell (nominal 6.0V).

But there was no any word, that engine should be STAR (Y) or DELTA...

Before change rules, I can put 12T delta and has more power, when
Polish society got this point, they wrote in new (updated without said it) rules that only STAR.

I think in Scotland, there is more democracy and more normal society and this
should be wrote what is permitted, only STAR or whatever you want.

If you take whatever you want, all will be use 7T delta or 8T delta and
some 6.5T star. I ask who win? Simple, more power from delta with higher
wind (because DELTA is always more powerful plant).

Your society should think about it and said what is OK for your local reces.

That is my 5 cents

Regards!
m.

ps: sorry for my E, I try do my best
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