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Old 09-12-2007, 12:05 PM   #196
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hey john.

the reason i tired that set up which seemed to work is because of seancochrans set up on team associated site of 19-07-07 ( or 07-19-07 for you americans :P)

as i tend to run stock this seemed good, although i didnt use his full set up

i tried his shock combo and camber link combo.

i am currently considering his full set up on my car, will try mine first
at a different track
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Old 09-12-2007, 03:28 PM   #197
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John- forgive me for asking such a newbie type Lipo question but do you lose voltage with the Lipo's running 19 turn and stock (using brushless motors) I've been told that Lipo's work killer in mod but you lose a little top end with a 4300/10.5 because it can't maintain the the high load that a mod has and running a 13.5 and Lipo is pointless. All this will be with the Orion Lipo's. I'm looking at the 3200 (best price) but may get one 4800. Educate me ole wise one!!!!
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Old 09-12-2007, 05:38 PM   #198
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OOligan RC-Thanks for the note. Good luck.

STLNST- I ran some stock with a Scorpion 3200 mA-h LiPo. I ballasted the touring car up to 53 ounces. In this condition The LiPo Scorpion LiPo was quite faster than NiMH for about 1/2 the run then it felt about the same. When the car was run light the LiPo was ballistic for the whole run.

From the cycle data that I have seen, low amperage discharge will wear the battery less. I would expect to see less voltage drop with number of cycles when you run stock than when you run mod. LiPo's nor NiMH like the huge amp draws from Mod TC. The batteries get hot. For Lipos this heat does the damage I am told. In stock the Lipos don't get warm at all.

I hate to bring this up, but the more flamable types of LiPo's seem to have more voltage at 50 cycles than the less flamable types when new. I have seen lab data as well as my personal data on this. Sooner or later all the flamable type manfacturers may be run out of buisness from lawsuits. Maybe the Lithium NanoPhosphate battery will rescue me from this dilemma. I am charging LiPo's in the can again.

We are getting a direct hit by a tropical storm. Rain!
John

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Old 09-12-2007, 06:15 PM   #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
OOligan RC-Thanks for the note. Good luck.

STLNST- I ran some stock with a Scorpion 3200 mA-h LiPo. I ballasted the touring car up to 53 ounces. In this condition The LiPo Scorpion LiPo was quite faster than NiMH for about 1/2 the run then it felt about the same. When the car was run light the LiPo was ballistic for the whole run.

From the cycle data that I have seen, low amperage discharge will wear the battery less. I would expect to see less voltage drop with number of cycles when you run stock than when you run mod. LiPo's nor NiMH like the huge amp draws from Mod TC. The batteries get hot. For Lipos this heat does the damage I am told. In stock the Lipos don't get warm at all.

I hate to bring this up, but the more flamable types of LiPo's seem to have more voltage at 50 cycles than the less flamable types when new. I have seen lab data as well as my personal data on this. Sooner or later all the flamable type manfacturers may be run out of buisness from lawsuits. Maybe the Lithium NanoPhosphate battery will rescue me from this dilemna. I am charging LiPo's in the can again.

We are getting a direct hit by a tropical storm. Rain!
John

thanks for the info. The true test will be on the track. I hope to get some 19 turn runs in along with the mod testing on Saturday.
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Old 09-14-2007, 06:39 PM   #200
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Locked Diff Results

The home locked diff worked very well. Not a lot of capital invested. This is how it transformed the car. On corner entry there is a slight push which I mentioned previously. This counteracts the tendency on brakes to bring the back end around. This limited my braking to straight line braking. I could now drive very hard into my hairpins and brake at the last moment even while turning all the way to the apex, then hard on power to come out. My current layout has three of these tight hairpins now. The car is handling just like a fullsize car might on these same type of corners. What a thrill!

The car was really hooked up well everywhere. I had to make no other changes to the posted setup except to go with blue springs in the back. I was turning fast laps. I got compliments on the cars handling from several people that observed. No wear apparent yet on the locked diff. I put 30 minutes of runtime on the car today. More on my battery tests below.
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Old 09-14-2007, 06:53 PM   #201
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Lithium Ion NanoPhosphate Battery by A123 Systems

Track test
Air temp 90 F track temp 125 F.

I got the new Li nPO4 (5 cell equivalent) battery today, and it it fit nicely in the TC5 battery tray. I made a few small modifications for ease of removal and replacement. I sanded slightly the top plate which is highlighted red in the center picture below. This allowed the Battery strap to go on and off with no interference. I extended my end supports with a small threaded tube and second 4-40 long set screw. My battery supports are shortened for Lipos. A stock car may get away with just a longer set screw. The first picture shows an almost complete setup for the batterry. I would add two tape straps to the battery around the top strap and battery to hold the battery better side to side or make some kind of support to keep it off the belts.

I made 2-10 minute runs with the battery. I tried 16, 17, and18 tooth pinions. The battery had good punch and speed in the infield. It was a little sluggish on the straight. It was fastest with the 87/17 or 10.23 overall. Motor temp after 10 minutes was only 155 F. Battery temp was 137, Speed control 134. I would say that this system with the Novak 3.5 R motor passed the heat test with flying colors.

I ran a LiPo (2S1P, 6 cell equivalent) on the last run. I got more top speed and more punch in the infield. The track had cooled to 105 by this time so motor temps were also good. Interestingly the motor still liked the 17 tooth pinion the best. This is my late model 3.5 which is not as fast as an earlier model that I have in the pan car.


The car is at 52 oz with no ballast, body on. Side to side weights are good with the right edge of the battery even with the right edge of the chassis. I have my batt slightly left (1/8 inch) in the photo giving a 2 ounce excess on the left side.

The battery came specified at 4600 mA-h. Nice. I'll test this. The outer tape label was pretty sloppy underneath. They need a shrink label. Charge time was fast. The battery weighs 11.4 ounces.

Discharge Data
4535 mA-h average over two discharge cycles.
6.10 V average at 20 A on the second cycle.
6.33 Volts average for the first 94 seconds.
6.11 V at 300 seconds.

Charge from a full discharge took 40 minutes (7 amps average)
charge after an 8 minute run took 20 minutes.
Temperature after a full discharge only 94F!! this is very good.

John
Attached Thumbnails
Associated Factory Team TC5, Brushless, LiPo, Li-ion Nanophosphate, Tips and Tricks-lithium-ion-nanophosphate-batterry-resized-003.jpg   Associated Factory Team TC5, Brushless, LiPo, Li-ion Nanophosphate, Tips and Tricks-lithium-ion-nanophosphate-batterry-resized-004.jpg   Associated Factory Team TC5, Brushless, LiPo, Li-ion Nanophosphate, Tips and Tricks-lithium-ion-nanophosphate-batterry-resized-006.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-15-2007 at 09:43 PM.
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Old 09-15-2007, 07:01 PM   #202
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John: What's the lenght, width, height of the 4600 A123 pac your using in millimeters?
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Old 09-15-2007, 09:36 PM   #203
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The pack dimensions are 134mm x 54mm x 27mm. I calculate that a 5 cell 4200mA-h NiMh should average about 6.04 V over a full discharge (If you have recent data on this please post it.). This Li nPO4 cell was at 6.10 V. Performance in the car should be very similar to a 5 cell NiMh. Now I want to say that already the pack is better than 4200's NiMh which I have purchased. Usually the first time I test a NiMh pack it has already lost 200-300 mA-h just from storage during shipping. This pack is pretty close to its advertized spec. I'll see how it holds up by using it in practice. I have the TC5 ready for a race tomorrow. I'll see if any TC's show. It is setup with LiPo and a Novak 3.5R. I am 5 cell ready as well.
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Old 09-16-2007, 12:08 AM   #204
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testing with the Orion 4800 was killer today. Ran the pack more than once and threw it back on the charger for more. Runtime was never an issue and I had plenty of punch running a 3.5 and 4.5 I didn't get a chance to run a 10.5 so that pasrt of the test will have to wait two weeks. After monitoring the mah the 4800 pack took in after a full mod run......... IMO a 3200 pack will work just fine. The price difference between the two packs are huge and other than capacity they should work exactly the same. Correct me if I'm wrong in saying that John. No motors to cut and not having to replace any IB cells this week made for a great day of racing. I ran the TC5 with and without adding weight to the Lipo pack. The car felt better with the car balanced from left to right.

>>>>note to other TC5 owners.......re-tightene your header card spool (if you made one) from time to time. The screw can back out a few turns on ya I'm done being the taller Strannahan so I will end this now.

Oh one more thing.....the new lipo upgrade on the GFX is killer. It sucks that the charger is so big but it is CE and they don't make junk.
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Old 09-16-2007, 12:44 AM   #205
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Hey John,
How efficient are the A123 packs?
Thanks, Drew.
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Old 09-16-2007, 09:18 AM   #206
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STLnst-Thanks for the report. I think you will find that even though a 3200 will run the car for 5 minutes, that the 4800 mA-h pack will have more voltage over the same 5 minutes because it is higher on the discharge curve. If you run at or near legal weight the extra capacity would be worth the extra money.

DrewDC90-I can't measure efficiency, but the pack runs very cool compared to a LiPo or NiMh. This is indicative of good efficiency. The battery runs the TC very well in the infield even though it is equivalent to only 5 cells. I could see where at some tracks it might be pretty equivalent to 6 cells. Long term testing to come.

John
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Old 09-16-2007, 02:00 PM   #207
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Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
STLnst-Thanks for the report. I think you will find that even though a 3200 will run the car for 5 minutes, that the 4800 mA-h pack will have more voltage over the same 5 minutes because it is higher on the discharge curve. If you run at or near legal weight the extra capacity would be worth the extra money.

DrewDC90-I can't measure efficiency, but the pack runs very cool compared to a LiPo or NiMh. This is indicative of good efficiency. The battery runs the TC very well in the infield even though it is equivalent to only 5 cells. I could see where at some tracks it might be pretty equivalent to 6 cells. Long term testing to come.

John
that does make sense over a 5 min run. The other thing I forgot to mention after yesterday's test was this. The Orion 3200 and 4800 packs have the pos (+) and neg (-) switched from one pack to the other. What sense did that make? If you are running a 3200 wired one way and then you try a 4800 without paying attention and plug it in the same as you had it on the 3200 I can only imagine what might happen It's the future of racing but many are scared of it probably due to some of the chaeper companies who's packs are exploding.
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Old 09-16-2007, 02:58 PM   #208
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Stlnlst- Thanks for the post. I have not liked the plugs on the orion as well. I think they need to be much bolder markings plus and minus with good color and let the styling slide just a bit more ugly on that end of the battery. Heck a Dean pigtail would be my preference as I don't even like their style of plug. Here is what will happen when you plug that 3200 in backwards. You will hear a light popping sound, maybe a tiny puff of smoke. If you open the pack you will find one of the cell connectors broken in half near the lead wires. I have seen two examples. If you solder this back together and let it sit in your fireproof area over night it might explode and burn to the ground. I have one example.

Race Report
Track Temp 130 F, LRP Sphere TC edition, Novak 3.5 R. 2s1p LiPo.
Nothing like a good race to expose all the weaknesses in your equipment that has been working fine in practice. I only managed to finish one heat but just barely.

The car did fine in practice. I ran the full Nitro course. It turned 19.7's in practice and felt really hooked up. By race time it had heated up 15 more degrees so I put on the RP40's and gave them a couple of laps to scrub them. They seemed to work fine.

First Heat the car did not feel quite as good as in practice although there seemed to be plenty of traction. 20.0 seconds were the best laps. About 4 laps from the end the car started accelerating poorly although it seemed not to be a battery problem. At the last lap it did dump and I barely crossed over the finish line. I managed to qualify right in the middle of 12 nitro 1/10 scale touring cars. I was the lone electric.

I geared the car slightly less for the second run to try and make runtime 87/16 or 10.87 (this is the gear that blew the Sphere X11 rotor) About 7 minutes before my next start I looked at the front home locked diff and it was melted. See the pic below. Apparently there is not quite enough hold for a 3.5R motor. Also I did not tighten it today as was suggested by stlnlst just above. It seemed to work well previously in 19 turn and stock brushed. I plan to get a stronger unit eventually. The diff worked well for a least 40 minutes in practice. I replaced the diff in 7 minutes which is a testament to the good design of the car, Got back on the track just in time, but something was slipping so I packed it up. I did not have a new pulley.

I will measure the pack to see how much capacity it has. I may just need some new ones as it has been a while. Probably 6000 mA-h would work better in the touring car. I was geared 90/17 or 10.58 for this run. Motor temp was only 160F. That was great. I got compliments on the cars speed. Straightaway speed was the best ever as I put in my best motor and geared it where it worked the best. Battery temp was low as well as the speed control. Things are looking good for the durability of the electronics on the long course. A couple more races will tell the tale.

After a long practice run at the beginning my car started having slight handling problems. This is usually a loose tire bead and was the problem here. Reglue the outside beads before an important race.

John
Attached Thumbnails
Associated Factory Team TC5, Brushless, LiPo, Li-ion Nanophosphate, Tips and Tricks-home-locked-diff-resized-003.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-16-2007 at 06:34 PM.
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Old 09-16-2007, 04:32 PM   #209
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
Stlnst- Thanks for the post. I have not liked the plugs on the orion as well. I think they need to be much bolder markings plus and minus with good color and let the styling slide just a bit more ugly on that end of the battery. Heck a Dean pigtail would be my preference as I don't even like their style of plug. Here is what will happen when you plug that 3200 in backwards. You will hear a light popping sound, maybe a tiny puff of smoke. If you open the pack you will find one of the cell connectors broken in half near the lead wires. I have seen two examples. If you solder this back together and let it sit in your fireproof area over night it might explode and burn to the ground. I have one example.

Race Report
Track Temp 130 F, LRP Sphere TC edition, Novak 3.5 R. 2s1p LiPo.
Nothing like a good race to expose all the weaknesses in your equipment that has been working fine in practice. I only managed to finish one heat but just barely.

The car did fine in practice. I ran the full Nitro course. It turned 19.7's in practice and felt really hooked up. By race time it had heated up 15 more degrees so I put on the RP40's and gave them a couple of laps to scrub them. They seemed to work fine.

First Heat the car did not feel quite as good as in practice although there seemed to be plenty of traction. 20.0 seconds were the best laps. About 4 laps from the end the car started accelerating poorly although it seemed not to be a batterry problem. At the last lap it did dump and I barely crossed over the finish line. I managed to qualify right in the middle of 12 nitro 1/10 scale touring cars. I was the lone electric.

I geared the car slightly less for the second run to try and make runtime 87/16 or 10.87 (this is the gear that blew the Sphere X11 rotor) About 7 minutes before my next start I looked at the front home locked diff and it was melted. See the pic below. Apparently there is not quite enough hold for a 3.5R motor. Also I did not tighten it today as was suggested by stlnst just above. It seemed to work well previously in 19 turn and stock brushed. I plan to get a stronger unit eventually. The diff worked well for a least 40 minutes in practice. I replaced the diff in 7 minutes which is a testament to the good design of the car, Got back on the track just in time, but something was slipping so I packed it up. I did not have a new pulley.

I will measure the pack to see how much capacity it has. I may just need some new ones as it has been a while. Probably 6000 mA-h would work better in the touring car. I was geared 90/17 or 10.58 for this run. Motor temp was only 160F. That was great. I got compliments on the cars speed. Straightaway speed was the best ever as I put in my best motor and geared it where it worked the best. Batterry temp was low as well as the speed control. Things are looking good for the durability of the electronics on the long course. A couple more races will tell the tale.

After a long practice run at the beginning my car started having slight handling problems. This is usually a loose tire bead and was the problem here. Reglue the outside beads before an important race.

John
the markings are small but my biggest gripe is why isn't the neg (-) in the same spot on the 3200 and the 4800? I hear that orion is going to announce a battery between the 3200 and 4800 so my question is will the plugs on this battery be in line down the middle... I'll be testing again in two weeks with only the 3.5. That diff looks like it was next to your last lipo fire...
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Old 09-16-2007, 06:17 PM   #210
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STLNLST-I noticed your gripe, I agree that at least having them the same would be better. I would have to open the packs up to see the reason they are different first though. It might be a packaging neccessity.

It is plain that I need a couple more laps out of my packs in the TC. I have ordered one From FMA direct I liked the test at 96 amps!. FMA direct is the same company that I purchased my first Scorpion (KoKam) LiPo from and whose charger I like for car use. They have learned some new things about LiPo's and have some interesting reading on their site. One thing that sticks out is a discussion of high discharge rate usage. They agree with me that 50 cycles is about it on high drain usage. This usage tends to create salt crystals in the pack. These crystals "continue to grow" after you stop using the pack. This seems to explain the last fire I had from a pack that I had stopped using. The crystals, that continued to grow, may have perforated and shorted some layers in the cell on the next charge. I repeat my advise that when you quit using one of these high drain LiPo cells because performance is off, then it is probably best to dispose of it as well. This FMA is advertized to be made by Parsons Energy Solutions but FMA notes that cells these days are sold under many names as they get closer to being a commodity. They are still not reasonably priced for the expense of creating them in my opinion, unlike a commodity. They are priced more like intellectual property.

This came up in a search for Parsons Energy Solutions. There may be a relation to my battery.

Worley Parsons Lithium batteries
Lithium Polymer

Steatite constantly review the battery solutions we offer you. The Worley Lithium Energy Cells offers one of the most advanced polymer rechargeable battery solution to date. In this growing world or portable devices and our desire to provide superior quality batteries for longer runtime, increased safety, lighter weight and longer life, we are pleased to offer this range.
Worley advanced patented battery solution:
  • World Patented polymer concept and technology (KOKAM)
  • Great safety performance with dry chemistry
  • Superior energy density (180Wh/kg)
  • High rate performance
  • Wide temperature range
  • Slim line batteries (down to 0.6mm)
  • Ease of custom design cells
  • Automated production equipment eliminates variables in manual assembly
  • Every cell or pack is electronically tested and individual test reports issued on shipment for each pack or cell

Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-16-2007 at 06:41 PM.
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