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Old 09-06-2007, 08:48 AM   #181
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Another LiPo Fire
Put the TC5 down just long enough to find out 3.5 degrees was too much rear toe for our track. It completely disconected the back. Got back to where the fire estinquisher was and got a notice that my battery was acting up. Shortly after ward it was on fire. I grabbed the extinguisher, half way to the table the battery (probably the second cell) shot out a big aerosolized jet of vapor which immediately ignited into to quite a spectacular fireball. They said it was loud. As I was closer to the action, this time, I did not hear it. The flame was 2 foot high shot all the way to the edge of the second table that was side by side with this one so 4 feet long and caught the bag, which I thought was out of reach, on fire so maybe 2 feet wide. A couple of squirts with the fire extinguisher and it was out. No faster action could really have been taken on our part because if I was at the battery, I would then have had to run to the fire extinquisher and back. So here are the losses.

In the car- The receiver is melted, the fan on the speed control is melted, the car stand is melted. The setup board has melt damage. It was not under the car but beside it. Chassis is probably OK.
In the bag. The big Nylon bag caught fire and melted off the body of my other pan car. Melted two stopwatches and a voltmeter inside. And there is probably hidden damage. Here is a pic. I have some pics of the scene of the crime coming, I'll post one if it comed out.

Would the battery sock have prevented secondary damage. Probably most. The explosion may have been bigger though, someone did unplug the chargers. I supect the sock would have jetted out a flame quite some distance from the type of fire I saw. Aerosolized vapor already at the flash point jetted out under some good pressure.

Just a report here. Typical procedure. Chunk those weak packs.

John
Maybe i'm a lil off, but that car in the pic isnt a tc5. Correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 09-06-2007, 10:15 AM   #182
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bxpitbull-The TC5 did not burn up. It was the other car charging on the bench which is an RC10L2O converted to a wide pan car.

Ooligan RC. The battery had 50 hard runs on it. It was on maintenance charging for a couple of months. It did not go below its low voltage threshold as far as I know. It ran the motor on the bench when first hooked up.
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Old 09-06-2007, 12:30 PM   #183
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Cool. I was wondering why it was in the TC5 thread, but then again, it fits because it is an AE car and lipo thread. Thanks for clarifying.
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Old 09-06-2007, 04:35 PM   #184
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the TR spool holds up very well...the centre piece is alloy but the outdrives are delrin with allow sleeves. as is the rear diff so rotating mass is reduced as much as possible. I ran mine with a 4.5 orion and it handled it better than i did.

most of the uk tracks are like eastbourne, although most are bigger. Eastbourne is a very technical track.

As for your combustion issues, how many charges had the batteries had, did they go below threshold? the UK has the select few chanting "we want lipo!" for our nationals, but the governing body BRCA, has yet to allow them.

As we run 5 cell here, until a 6v lipo is available and reliable and safe, we here will be nimh powered.

just for info the itf chassis is 2mm thick.

i just looking for a one way unit to fit the car now, I know the yokomo BD fits but the outdrives are too small for standard drive shafts, although tc3/4 ones I have heard work.
Nice track The bd 1 way is a direct fit if u use the tir driveshafts, or the tc4 1way outdrives will fit the bd 1way, but the AE 1 is now out!
That rear diff look's sweet, il have 2 get my self 1 of them!!
Cheers.
Ste e.
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Old 09-07-2007, 11:17 AM   #185
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Nice track The bd 1 way is a direct fit if u use the tir driveshafts, or the tc4 1way outdrives will fit the bd 1way, but the AE 1 is now out!
That rear diff look's sweet, il have 2 get my self 1 of them!!
Cheers.
Ste e.

building a second car up ready for carpet.

This will have standard chassis, one way and be fitted with 19T should be a laugh, gonna put Juho levanen's indoor set up on it as its similar to my outdoor

its indoor on carpet using vtec 24r's
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Old 09-08-2007, 05:41 PM   #186
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Track Report
Medium-Low Grip
Track Temp 110 F Air Temp 91F, CS 32's dry (perfect wear pattern)

On the fifth run Now I have a good setup on the car for the conditions of the track and the lightweight nature of the battery. I can give you a better evaluation of the car knowing however, that I have made some changes to the stock chassis and upper plate to add some more flex. I have also softened the roll stiffness some to account for the cars lighter weight. Niravanna. The car drives really good now on the short course.

Gone is the unpredicatable nature that it had previously in the middle of the short straights. It would tend to react violently to bumps and slight over throttle and spin out. This was from being too stiff in the spring department. I am running blue (17lb) fronts and green (12lb) rears now. I am still running a ball diff although a locked diff will surely find its place on the front when they are readily available in the states.

The car has excellent turnin or cornering traction on corner entry. If you do not overshoot the corner it drifts smoothly and you can keep the car right at the limit of cornering with the throttle. If you overdo things the soft springing will protest and you will get some stuttering of the rubber tire. It is best to stay within the limits of the tires, especailly when you run mod. It is easy to overheat the tires with all the power that is available. You will note when this happens as you start to loose the back end on some corners. Three of us drove the car. I drove a full pack (10 minutes runtime) on the short course which average about 10 second laps. 80 percent of the course is cornering and maybe only 20% on full throttle. This accounts for the long runtime and modest motor and battery temperatures. You are driving with some throttle the entire course except one hairpin near the drivers stand where you can go to neutral or even use a little light braking.

I drove the car and declared it perfect. Jeff drove the car and had only a couple incidents late in the corner where the car oversteered. He is a Nitro Driver these days normally, they are not back on throttle quite yet where the car spun, so the solution for him was to just apply more throttle mid to late corner. The oversteer went away. Andrew drove the car well also with no big incidents. He has a different driving style and was throwing the car into the corner instead of making a smooth arc like I do. What this did is overheat the rear tires and made the car progressively oversteer worse with each lap. Rubber marbles were apparent on the rear tread. He would need to set up the car a little stiffer to drive this way.

Cornering traction is definitely superior on the TC5 than on the Losi JRXS that I own. The car is fairly durable. We have gone through two arms. The suspension mount nut was repaired with longer screws which you should put on ahead of time if you run spacers.

Novak 3.5R and LRP X11 3.5
I have run both motors in the TC5. The LRP X11 3.5 is certainly faster right up until the point where the rotor blows up into little pieces. I have it returned now for warantee replacement. I am glad I did not purchase it oveseas. What a nightmare that would be. That big arm gives the motor huge punch coming out of the corners and very slightly more top speed on a very long straight. The Novak 3.5 is super smooth in the TC. I will run a bigger sintered arm in the Novak when it arrives. I do not feel a bit overmotored with either arm.

The lightened car ran very well today. No problem discernible from having weight up on the battery strap.

I'll post a setup after a bit as I am very happy with it. It is quite simple as well.
John

Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-08-2007 at 06:37 PM.
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Old 09-08-2007, 07:10 PM   #187
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Setup for ball front diff and lightweight LiPo battery with no ballast, Rubber Tires
Outlaw TC so to speak. I am very happy running it this way on a short course. Motor 140F and battery temperatures 126 F were modest with a 110 F track temperauture. Novak 3.5 R geared 87/17 or 10.23. A 16 tooth pinion did not deliver sufficient corner exit punch.

Front
New Text: Caster 4 degrees, 0 toe
bumpsteer & Ackerman: Steering link inner hole on steering arm (new 10/30/2007), .150 shim under a long ball stud in outer hole, inner ballstud in forward hole on bellcrank.
Wheelbase middle front and back.
Camber about -1.5 degrees front and back to wear tires evenly.
Blue 17 lb springs top of the shock all the way out, bottom out.
6mm ride height.
35 weight oil stock piston (#3), .010 inch bevel on bottom of piston hole to improve uptravel.
Camber link inner, low outside, Camber link outer, no washer.
Lower A-arm mounts, long (#1) in the upper hole. One thick spacer to move width closer to 190 mm.
Actual Droop 3mm
no Kickup
Diff medium cam holes down. I made this adjustment just to reduce wear and movement of the dogbone.

Rear
Green 12 lb springs. Top of shock second hole out, bottom in inner hole.
Rear Ride height 6.5 mm
35 weight oil, stock piston (#3), .010 inch bevel on bottom of piston holes.
Camber link inner, middle outside, outer camber link, inner one washer on ballstud.
Lower A-arm suspension mount medium in lower hole. Thick washer in back and 1/2 degree hub to give a total 2.5 degree rear toe in.
Rear diff medium holes up.
Actual Droop 3.5 mm

I am happy with the stock belts which loosened up when I made adjustments to the diffs to reduce dogbone angle.

I may make edits to this post as I find better setting for my track. I may get lap times next weekend.

Setup for Locked Diff
Change rear spring from green to blue. Keep same positions. Add .25 more rear toe by adding .025 inch thick spacers in addition to the 2 degree spacers and .5 degree hubs.

John

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Old 09-08-2007, 07:23 PM   #188
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DROOP
I thought I would talk about droop a bit since it is alway a bit confusing when you get numbers from various droop gauges.

If the car is at rest and on its suspension we can say that the wheels are at 0 quite arbitrarily. They are not up in bump nor down in droop. Let's say I have the TC5 resting on the tires and the rear ride height is 6.5 mm. Left photo below. Now I lift the chassis with my finger until the tires are just about to lift from the table. This condition has the rear wheels at full droop, as low as they will go with respect to the chassis. I put the ride height gauge under the car and it reads 10mm. The difference is the droop. The tires have dropped 3.5mm with respect to the chassis (at rest). There is 3.5 mm of actual droop. When this number, 3.5mm, measured this way gets bigger there is more droop.

More Droop decreases the roll stiffness. you will get slightly better cornering traction on that end of the car. Less droop will give you more roll stiffness, less cornering traction on that end of the car, but more responsiveness to steering input. On a TC5 we have nice fat allen screws on the A-arms that touch the chassis and allow us to make small changes in droop. That is the kind of droop chages I like. Small ones to fine tune. Of course this goes into backwards and insensitive mode when you add the locked front diff.

I have not been blessed with smooth tracks to run on so I tend to have generous droops to maximize wheel travel through the bumps. If your track is higher traction and more smooth then use less droop.

Other gauges give you an arbitrary number that you have to think about a little bit to see what it is telling you. As long as you know what droop really is you can translate the guage reading to something usefull in your head.

The pic at left shows the suspension at normal ride height with no droop. I slide the guage in with no friction. The right pic I have lifted the chassis until the tires almost lift. The wheels are at full droop. The actual droop is 3.5 mm. That is how much the wheels have dropped relative to the chassis at rest.
Attached Thumbnails
Associated Factory Team TC5, Brushless, LiPo, Li-ion Nanophosphate, Tips and Tricks-ride-height-resized.jpg   Associated Factory Team TC5, Brushless, LiPo, Li-ion Nanophosphate, Tips and Tricks-droop-resized.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-08-2007 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 09-09-2007, 01:43 AM   #189
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Track Report
The suspension mount nut was repaired with longer screws which you should put on ahead of time if you run spacers.
Man, why didn't I think about that. I did clip a board that was jutting out and ripped the corner off the car. At closer inspection, the blue arm mount "nut" was sheared off right where the thread of the screw ended. Thanks for the tip
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Old 09-09-2007, 04:23 AM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
Setup for ball front diff and lightweight LiPo battery with no ballast
Outlaw TC so to speak. I am very happy running it this way on a short course. Motor 140F and battery temperatures 126 F were modest with a 110 F track temperauture. Novak 3.5 R geared 87/17 or 10.23. A 16 tooth pinion did not deliver sufficient corner exit punch.

Front
Blue 17 lb springs top of the shock all the way out, bottom out.
6mm ride height.
35 weight oil stock piston (#3), .010 inch bevel on bottom of piston hole to improve uptravel.
Camber link inner, low outside, Camber link outer, no washer.
Lower A-arm mounts, long in the upper hole. One thick spacer to move width closer to 190 mm.
Actual Droop 3mm
no Kickup
Diff medium holes down. I made this adjustment just to reduce wear and movement of the dogbone.

Rear
Green 12 lb springs. Top of shock second hole out, bottom in inner hole.
Rear Ride height 6.5 mm
35 weight oil, stock piston (#3), .010 inch bevel on bottom of piston holes.
Camber link inner, middle outside, outer camber link, inner one washer on ballstud.
Lower A-arm suspension mount medium in lower hole. Thick washer in back and 1/2 degree hub to give a total 2.5 degree rear toe in.
Rear diff medium holes up.
Actual Droop 3.5 mm

I am happy with the stock belts which loosened up when I made adjustments to the diffs to reduce dogbone angle.

I may make edits to this post as I find better setting for my track. I may get lap times next weekend.

John
JOHN,


nice set up but here in uk we found the car handling was better with longer camber links.

anoither thing I found as did a few other drivers thst running #2 pistons, with 45 weight oil, and blue springs all round worked great.

We are using spool. and the one major changewe nade to the car was to put the bottom shock mount on the inner hole on the front, pretty much as you have on the rear... It transformed the car to one that had no understeer and no oversteer(unless you over cooked it). I found it gave so much more corner speed. our tracks are bumpy over here except the few that are smooth.


ill do a set up sheet and post it for you to try.
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Old 09-09-2007, 11:31 AM   #191
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Thanks for the posts.

OoliganRC-Your setup notes would be welcome. Note that I did run the front lower shock mount in early on, and also ran the rear camber link long for a while. I have not tried the front camber link long. The car is steering really well.
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Old 09-09-2007, 04:04 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Stranahan View Post
Thanks for the posts.

OoliganRC-Your setup notes would be welcome. Note that I did run the front lower shock mount in early on, and also ran the rear camber link long for a while. I have not tried the front camber link long. The car is steering really well.
John
ok here goes.

front:
Spring blue:
oil: 45wt
shock positions 2A
camber link 3
arm mounts spaceing f:1 r:0
wheelbase : 1
arm mounts F:2A R:2a
diff : spool, position 15A

steering:
bumpstop:2mm
position: 1b
toe: -.5

rear:
Spring blue:
oil: 45wt
shock positions 3A
camber link 5A
hub shims:2mm
arm mounts spaceing f:0 r:2.5mm
hex spacing: 1mm
wheelbase : 2
arm mounts F:1a R:1a
diff : tight, position 15A


have the itf bottom chassis with the standar top dec with the cross piece infront of the spur removed.

I ran gearing of 5.8 40/116 (64pitch) using a full throttle motorsports monster27T.

Upgrades: spool, cvd driveshafts, lightweight layshaft and Alloy Diff. all from www.titaniumracing.com.; a dual fan from www.coolcanfan.com and finally
stealth-pt from MRT
car weighs in at:1501g, with only 40g on weight in the centre front of the car.
balance(from memory) weight 1482 (no pt)left to right was 52/48%
front to rear was 48/52% that can be ballance by my reckoning by the pt being place infront of the batteries on the right side.

damn im getting anal about this car...lol

hope this help in any way
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Old 09-09-2007, 10:22 PM   #193
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OoliganRC-Thanks for the setup notes. I'll get the setup sheet and take a closer look at what you have.

Those nice blue bits on your car don't seem to be available from the Titanium Racing Web site you linked to. They are described but you cannot add them to the cart.

Track Test
91F air Temp, 94 F track temp. Track very green from a heavy rain the same day. Takeoff RP 30's worked very well.

The car is making good traction where there is little. This is just super on a green track. I give the car high marks. It is very easy to drive with no ill manners. I am building up my speed now. I am starting to go into neutral just a moment before some of the corner entries to use a little drag brake. You can also do this in a corner to bring the back end around a little faster. Normally though, I take the corners on some throttle. There is one hairpin where I can use a little light brakes to speed things up. I use the brakes while the car is going straight just before corner entry.

Later this week I will open another previously used cutoff on the straight. This will give lap times on the order of 15-16 seconds and may work well with this new LRP TC edition speed control. I should have my fat Novak sintered armature by then. I could use a little more punch out of the corners. The fat LRP 3.5 arm has spoiled me.

Here is another view of the chassis for those new to the thread. It also shows another view of the chassis mod and top strap mod. These are working well. I am running a lightweight LiPo battery and am running the car light so all the electronics possible are on the battery strap to balance weight side to side. The car is running very well like this. Some competitors are coming out of the woodwork, so we may develop a touring car class again.

I should have some Li nPO4 batteries next week to test.
John
Attached Thumbnails
Associated Factory Team TC5, Brushless, LiPo, Li-ion Nanophosphate, Tips and Tricks-chassis-mods-resized.jpg  

Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-10-2007 at 12:41 PM.
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Old 09-10-2007, 12:17 PM   #194
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Caster (Dual Rate)
On my setup I did not include caster. I am running 4 degrees. I thought I would discuss it just a bit. First a short description. If you add more caster you get more front cornering grip at mid turn and less at turn in. I did the experiment on my XXXS. I started with 4 degrees caster on a well setup car. I reduced it to 2 and then to 0. I was getting massive oversteer on corner entry with 0. (tight donuts).
Caster is an important setting on the touring car. One of the things that most of us do to fine tune the touring cars oversteer/understeer balance is to use the dual rate wheel which is usually thumb or finger operated on the handle of the transmitter. If the car oversteers, we turn the dual rate wheel to reduce the amount of steering throw. Once you have had some practice on a layout this will automatically reduce the slip angle of the tire and the effects of caster to give you slightly less steering on each corner.
Now I want to tell you that I don't drive with the radio wheel against the stop even though some drivers do. I like to have extra travel available to redirect the car after it has been bumped or crashed. My turning circle is about 2 ft. Make it the same for a left and right turn with your End point adjustments. The dual rate wheel still works for me. I use it every session to fine tune the car as traction is slightly different every session.

Caster Theory
Negative Camber Gain
So why does caster work. There are three important things that caster does. First of all we are discussing caster with fairly wide flat bottomed car tires as opposed to narrow bicycle tires.
If you turn the wheels to the left on the bench, and watch that outside tire, the camber changes as you turn the wheel. It becomes more negative. This favors traction when the car is rolled highly in the turn (mid corner). When the car is not rolled, the camber is too negative for good traction, so turn in(front cornering traction early in the turn) is reduced.

Wedge
Now if I put the front tires on my corner weight scales and use the transmitter to turn the wheels an interesting thing happens. The inside front tire and outside rear tire gain more load. This adds "wedge" to the chassis. Oval guys add wedge to a chassis by jacking the spring collars or moving weight to these two wheels to get more steering traction.
Weight transfers lateraly in a corner and tends to overload the outside front tire. Wedge removes load from this outside front tire and makes the front axle more efficient at cornering.
This in my opinion is the most important effect on our rubber tired TC's

Self Centering
Finally If you turn the wheels on the car on the bench and look closely you will find that the entire front end lifts. (not so on the bicycle). This gives the car a self centering tendency as the car wants to drop down in place. Now personally, I have not noticed much of a self centering effect with RC cars. This would be most noticeable on the straight. That hugely powerful servo that I use pretty much makes this tendency absent except for the slight slack in the steering mechanism. I use caster to tune cornering and not straight line running.
Attached Thumbnails
Associated Factory Team TC5, Brushless, LiPo, Li-ion Nanophosphate, Tips and Tricks-schematic-caster-resized.jpg  
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Old 09-11-2007, 06:20 PM   #195
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Home Locked Diff
I took a few minutes yesterday to lock my front diff. I used Losi part # LOS A3250 sandpaper disks for the Losi XXX-SG+. Everything went well. The way you use these disks is that you remove the balls from the pulley and put the disks on either side of the pulley. The sand bites into the pulley. The paper side of the sandpaper rides on the diff rings creating a double disk clutch that may slip some on impact. I bottomed the Associated diff spring and left it bottomed instead of loosening 1/4 turn. Test to come. I have put blue springs on the back of the car to compensate for the change. This may work even better than on the Losi since the pulley material is much harder and won't compress as much with use. Or it may break the outdrives. I'll give it a test tomorrow if it does not rain.

I am going to reopen a cutout farther down on our straight to give me about 15-16 second lap times with the TC. This might be ideal with our current crop of speed controls and motors. It will cut down on rotor and armature explosions that we experience on the long course.

Ooligan RC- I made some effort to compare our setups since you went to the trouble of posting one. One thing, of course, different is that you are running a spool and I was running a standard ball diff. This will pretty much explain the difference in spring rate on the back. I made some effort to find out which of Associated Pistons goes with which number. I opened my shock and my #3 piston seems to have a large hole. I don't have the #2 piston that you posted in hand, but I believe it is a smaller hole. I have several manuals none of which tells me which one is bigger. Someone could post this. Your damping is quite a bit different, stiffer, than mine (if that hole is smaller) On my track with damping that stiff the car would be leaving the ground at several places around the track. On other less bumpy tracks I have noticed cars with stiff damping hopping on smaller bumps. Here is a test I do. Drop the front of the TC5 on the table from a height of about 4 inches and see what happens. Mine goes thud does not bottom and does not bounce. I think this is ideal. Now if you turn faster lap times with the shock stiffer then yours is fine. I have a suspicion the opposite would be true. I have a Juho Levanhen setup with #2 and 35 weight but he is on carpet. It is still less stiff than 45 weight. Usually you run stiffer shocks on carpet to kill some cornering traction.

And Of course I have the previosly posted data on this thread on the full size Porsche and Ford Focus that shows the difference in cornering if you are overdamped.

After I get this locked diff dialed in I will try one of the changes to Ackerman that we have available.
John

Last edited by John Stranahan; 09-12-2007 at 05:45 PM.
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