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Old 12-04-2001, 08:55 AM   #1
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Default Setting: Droop VS Camber link position

Hi all!
Am experimenting with downstop(aka droop) versus camber link position. I current own a TA04, and noticed that if I reduce the amount of droop, i.e. suspension arm has less travel the rear end tends to have lesser traction, and tends to come around to the front should I ease the throttle.

On the other hand, if I remove my droop screw, and change my camber link locations I also can get a similar effect by shortening the length of my camber link.

What I would like to know is the pros and cons of using either method to allow my car to lose rear traction (slightly, not till the car spins out) when I am braking/easing throttle.

Thanks!

Regards,
Alvin
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Old 12-04-2001, 02:34 PM   #2
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Well Alvin,
Your question is more complicated than it sounds and you probably have a pretty good grasp of the subject anyways. Personally I prefer to adjust droop screws. For me I get more effective results with them probably because my car doesn't have that many roll center adjustments. The droop screws are a little more precise anyways because one turn can be enough to create traction or drift. Droop screws also help me adjust my suspension tweak so I can take care of two things at one time.
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Old 12-04-2001, 06:12 PM   #3
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hey alvin,
droop and roll centre ... ohh yea its the most important thing in setups i guess i ahve been messing around with it for some time now and i STILLL CANNOT actually figure out which is best ...


do share some of ur info here man ... i m still testing ..i m gona tell u some things that i have found out about these

roll centre .... i asked around some said lower better some said higher better... its addjusted by changing camberlink locations and other suspenison arm and hub positions

generally what i have found out is that on bumpy surface low roll centre is a big NO NO it will make ur car soo difficult to control ... but on flat surfece ... it increases traction....- no idea why ... but this is what i found out... and to get low roll centre the outer lonk on hubs must be HIGHER than the one on the shock tower

which means its angled down towords the shock tower
and by doing this u will get aditional CAMBER when the shock is compressed SO it also effectively means that u can run ur car at 0 degrees cam bet for maximum stright linne traction AND still get good traction on coners cause ur camber is increased ( negetive value) when the shocks are compressed

if u the camber link is angled strighed and alined with the lower A arm ... ( should mean higher roll centre- not sure some said its invinity some said its higher - i m really confused) it WILL NOT HAVE ANY CAMBER GAIN DURING SUSPENSION COMPRESION and i found it reasier to control this way ... and to a certain extend it increases TRACTION in some turn and situation ( maybe its the body roll which caused the car to gain the xtra traction - my setup is very very very soft )

and is the camber link is angled upwords towords the suspension arm and downwords to the hub it will have POSITIVE camber gain when the suspension is compressed ... i never tried this...... cause i think its not beneficial for the suspenison to ge positive camber while conering and again some said this is infinity roll centre or higher roll centre i m not sure myself.

the longer camber link means a more active suspenison cause it will extra degrees of changes with the same amount of compression when compared to a shorter camber link compressed to the same amount WITHOUT changing the the actuall camber which is set ON the tiire ...... LOL OUCH this is hard
so which means if u use the camber gauge u have -1.5 degree of camber but its mounted in different positions and and have different lenght

continues in the next post..............
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Old 12-04-2001, 06:37 PM   #4
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droop ... well

i used to run NO droop on my car it worked felt like it has tons of grip and look as if its sliding a bit but still has tons of speed ....
i could turn the car around real fast and it will come to a HALT on hair pins ... so i had to slow down.
one think i did not like then was TIRE WEAR .... the tires was eating like 1 heat- 18-26 laps per tire and it was a SOREX 36!

i started experimenting with droop ....
initially i had 8 mm of droop in the rear and none on front but with the REAR camber links set to gain positive camber when compressed the grip was there but it felt like it was sliding and its quite slow in the turns but the rear end will never come around when i turned the car. if i turned it hard ... it will go in a perfect circle before flipping into the air ...... the car was sooooo easy to drive it was not as twichy as before... but the bad side was that it took every turn at 90 degrees angle ....i had to hold the stearing longer than i used to if i wanted to do a 180 U turn ... - it really caused me some timing problems and made me hit the panic button a few times when i initially tested this setting i was used to a twichy VERY VERY twichy car lol

and during high speed coners ... the rear end will have lots of grip but the rear but it rolls outword of a turn preety badly and sometimes one side of the front tire will lift up ....( good thing i had one ways or i will not be able to pull trough the turn with one tire off the ground )

the good thing about this setup is that it makes the car very easy to drive .... SUPER EASY at sacrifice of coner speed... but those of u who uses full 4wd and hard braking technique would love this
its sooo stable and it goes into a turn really stable before doing a tight turn at the apex and then comming out full blast ... looked and felt like theres something in the middle of the car which lifted it up and placed it in the direction of the exit when ur at the apex ...it only happend when u punch the trottle on the apex if u dont punch the trottle it will OVERSTEAR badly ( on high traction surface) on low traction surface ( basketball court) it felt like understear - understear - serious understear and VER VERY VERY SERIOUS UNDERSTEAR ...

to be continued

Last edited by imataquito; 12-04-2001 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 12-04-2001, 07:21 PM   #5
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now i m testing full droop in the rear and front

11 mm front and rear ... and with a ride height of 5-7 mm ( balancing it to suit the track curves ) initial understear or initial overestear or vice versa

roll centre is lowered and i have slight negative camber during suspension compression ( long camber links with .5 camber all around )

the car will understear off trottle but on trottle it will pull trough ( rear end lose traction) just nice and it felt easier to control

it has more coner speed compared to the previous setting and it does not go in 90 degrees turn it turns round now

with the stratus body on the rear end stays RELLY planted ...
without it ... it may come around the front IF i dont punch the trotle exiting a turn but this only happens if i entre a turn really fast ( pushing hard to test my limits)

ok hope this helps ... its just my own experience and now a sorex 36 r could last like um ... 23 laps x 8 outings 184 laps and still gong real strong. + driving / playing will be less stresful as its not as twichy.
the bad thing aout tis setup is that my body keeps rolling rolling and rolling but with more speed than before and it sattles very quick after a roll( suspension springs and dampers helps here )

S curves and switchbacks or chicanes can be taken swiftly with initial and middle roll but it settles and stabilizes instantly after u let off ur stearing.


so now back to ur question - i had to tell u all these above so u can judge how u want to set it after listening to my final advise on ur actual question..

i am not too sure of the pros and cons on doing it either way but for my personal preference is that i will use the camber position to make my rear end lose traction cause it will make ur rear end lose traction but in a slower fasion and still keep ur tires on the ground.....
if u like the rear end to react faster then lessen ur droop ..... to addjust the amount of skid

well like i said i personally go for the camber addjustment cause the speed tthese cars move in itself is already fast enuff and even with a stock motor u can run real fast if u geared it right + with less camber changes u will have a stable rear end on strights and slower reaction will make it easier for u to control it and cocentrate on ur drive line and avoiding other cars

its my $0.000002 cents worth


taQ
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Old 12-05-2001, 02:50 AM   #6
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Hi dudes!
Mike: that's a good tip!
imaquito: That's a lot of runs you got there! Me I only got 3 packs and play twice a week i.e. 6 runs a week

Hmm after reading through the suggestions what I personally think now is that I'd set my downstop for my rear to a certain level. Let's say +3.

Then I will adjust my camber link to the "feel" of the car which I like.

And then finally, the downstops adjustment as Mike suggests for super fine tuning the way the car handles.

I don't really know much about the roll centre of the car. I know mine right now has the front roll centre pretty low (actually I only have 3 front camber link positions. It's in the "mid roll centre" type) it's my rear end which I am playing around with now. If I set mine low front high rear, the car is very grippy, and the rear end only slides if I "throw" my car in the corner. Very boring to drive, need to brake else it seems to understeer too when off throttle. Must brake, then turn & accelerate.

If the front low rear low the car will slide even just driving around. I got some setting on my 04 right now which allows it to understeer on power (and grips the road) and oversteers (i guess that's what it is) i.e. rear end tends to come around in a turn when I am slowly decreasing my brake or at neutral.

The way I drive (currently) is to take the turn with a decreasing throttle so when I reach the apex my car is pointing in the correct direction with throttle at neutral. And then I can engage throttle for exit. Looks good seems fast but hell I need someone to time my car to see if it really works

I don't have sorex 36 though, I'm using Express radials for now, and my front camber has to be set up to -2 degrees!!! Rear -1.5. Else the wear rate is not even.
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Old 12-05-2001, 04:05 AM   #7
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AHA Express radials ..... i EX favourite tires ...i will use em for carpet or cement tracks ... maybe ...
i used to say that xpress are good tires ... well they r but untill i tried the sorex.... it blew me away !!! hehehehhe super grip + higher speed and it felt soo much easier to ride

i still have a set of preety new set of express tho what i hate about xpress is that IF i tke HIGH speed coners in a smooth like way it will tend to suddenly GRIP and i MIGHT flip in the air or even
totally lose control of the car ....with xpress i have to use the brakes .... something which my car does not do well in - braking i m using full time one way

ur setting is slightly opposite from mine ... i set my car to understear off trottle ... say when i enter a turn from a off trottle roll i will entre it like i will ram stright into the wall .... and will not pull through the turn .... but once my car is aiming at the apex or exit line ... i pounch the trottle and i take the turn real tight ....

do u mean that when u set the front camber link position to a lower angle in fornt and higher in the rear it will be gripper??

which holes r u using ???
the front has 3 holes on the shock tower if i m not mistaken
and the rear has 5 holes on the on the shock tower and 2 holes on the HUBS.....

which holes do u say when u use it will be grippier???
on what surface??
hhe i would tune it to grip first and use the one ways and other stuff like springs and damper combination to make it tune nicely rather than undestear ....
it might be boring now .... but once u meet the WOLVES on the track ... u will love these kind of setting ....... enables u to play side by side with em and still be FAST ...

i can never hold my car with its older very twichy setup to play side by side more then 1 lap ..... one way or the other i will crash into him .... ... my best record was 2 1/2 laps b4 crashing with someone beside me running beside me ....continously .. hehhee
i changed my perspective of exciting driving cause driving with someone and messing together with him is more exciting than actually TRYING to control ur car - excited while trying to handle the car

btw do tell me which holes u were using if u want it to be grippy ...
tell me setup also ....
want to help friend ... and also widen my knowledge on setups

TY
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Old 12-05-2001, 04:09 AM   #8
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also tell me ur shock setup .. and ither setups on ur car ...

i will share my friends car setup ... once i call my friend .... i just love it cause i help him do the setup
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Old 12-05-2001, 08:16 PM   #9
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Default MOD setup

Front
gold tamiya springs
outmost hole on shock tower iner most hole on arm
50 W trinity oil + 2 hole piston tamiya shocks
lower hole on shock tower for camber links.
droop 2 mm
1deg neg camber
5 mm ride height

REAR
blue tamiya springs
inermost hole on shock tower
inermost hole on arm
50W trinity oil + 3 hole piston
lower-longest hole for camberinks position on shock tower
upper hole on hubs
no droop limitor ....( not sure how much droop not measured )
camber 1.5 neg
5-6mm ride height

notes - hehe super fast reaction with rear end planted ..
rear wont come to the front but will be fish tailing to a certain extend....

lower-longest hole for camberinks position on shock tower- for bumpy tracks or depending on situation use upper longest positon on shock tower and upper hole on hubs

the hubs must be positioned at the lower hole to the A arms
if u use the upper hole ... rear end keeps sliding - rally style

centre one ways and front one ways
on certain tracks or surface rear shock must be softer others lower ...

just keep the front as it is

u will have to experiment with stablizers cause i have not tried them yet and soo far the car is superb on tarmac ... never tried other surface ....


Last edited by imataquito; 12-05-2001 at 08:39 PM.
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Old 12-05-2001, 10:31 PM   #10
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Here is a good explantion off rc-racing :

Quote:
Any endpoint of the suspension travel (be it shock length or a purpose
screw) is an up or downstop. Mostly upstops (upward suspension travel
stops) are not used. This means normally the chassis bottoms out before
the suspension is at the end.

Downstops (downward suspension movement limiters) are a valuable tuning
tool. If a car is exiting a corner and you start to acellerate. The
front end which is rolled towards the outside will lift due to the
accelleration force. Let's assume no downstop. The front suspension
will travel down until equilibrium exists between the weight on the
front wheels and the spring force (if we assume a spring of suficcient
length). Because the front can move so far upward the car will react
strongly to power changes and (depending on damping) will generally
have a slow response. Limiting this downtravel will mean the inside
suspension will stop travelling downward and any residual lift will be
achieved by the OUTSIDE wheel. This means that the car will tend to
stay flatter during the exit of the corner (this might be a solution to
your front wheen in the air Mike). A secondary result is more load will
be transferred to the outside wheel and thus decreasing front grip as a
whole (this generally gives an easier car out of corners due to the
more pronounced understeer)

In general the more you limit front suspension downtravel the less
steering you will get on throttle out of corners, but the more stable
and predictable the car.

Downstop too low (too much droop) will lead to sluggish response to
steering commands on throttle, possible oversteer and les
predictability.

Downstop too high will lead to excessive understeer out of corners,
jumpyness over bumps.
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Old 12-06-2001, 05:50 AM   #11
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hm ... yea it can be a solution .... but i dislike it cause it will cause my car to understear excesively if i hit the trottle and i might crash to the outer barrier of the track ....
with the lifting up it might mean that the car is not well setup cause if i take the turn slower it will go into the track barrier ... wont turn ... but IF i punch the trottle i pull trough with lots of speed and of course the inner front wheel lifts up slightly.....

hehe it might not sound right cause u will say reaction is slow and its hard to handle a car tliting here and there... ... well that can be corrected with damping and spring forces which will stabilize the car soon after u let go of ur stearing wheel which means ... it settles to a neurtal position instantly (when theres no side force applied)
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Old 12-06-2001, 11:17 PM   #12
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dude,
sorry for the late reply. Rushing a school project

About the tires. Well the express radial tires really grip, but they, like u mention, do not have the smooth feel and performance of the sorex tires. Also the express rims are really fragile IMHO, I usually swap 'em for some el cheapo rims which can take a pounding. I tried OFNA rims once with my tamiya Type-As and they are very strong. However the express radials I'm using do have a pretty flexible sidewall, and I needto run like -2 degree of camber on the front to get proper tire wear. Oh well.

Anyhow I don't exactly have a "good" setup; I'm still playing around with setups and this is my current setup for 23T Yokomo YS. Note that I am not using a one-way setup. My ta04 is still full time 4wd and is basically 99% stock.

Here's what I got so far:
Tamiya TA04R, more or less stock:

Front Settings
Medium Narrow Express Radials
Camber -2deg
Shock As vertical as possible (sharper turning)
0 downstop (screw removed)
Toe in 1 degree
No antiroll bar
Rideheight 6mm
50wt shock oil, stock TRF dampers
Camber Link: Stock
Tamiya Red Springs

Rear Settings
Medium Narrow Express Radials
Camber -1.5deg
Shock As vertical as possible (less side bite.... that's what I feel.)
+8 downstop
Toe in 2 degree (stock blocks)
No antiroll bar
Rideheight 6mm
50wt shock oil, stock TRF dampers
Camber Link: Top Row Centre Hole
Tamiya White Springs

My track is a technical track. Surface is not prepared and usually the nitro car to eletric population is like 20:1

This setup gives my 04 slight understeer on power/acceleration on the straight. Good because I feel due to the 6 degree castor, it looses too much speed if any sudden turns are made.

On braking i.e. off throttle or slowly decreasing throttle the car will tend to oversteer.

How isthe timing? I have no idea. No one timing me with this setup yet

Other items:
HPI Lancer Evo 6 shell
Tekin G12C esc
"Fake Transponder" made with the spares in my kit
3003 Servo
Futaba R123 Receiver
Ball differentials at recommended tightness

On the other hand, I feel that if the track is more or less high speed and not technical at all, I will set my car to super understeer. Why? Hehe based on Colin McRae rally 2, if I set my car to understeer it performs much better on high speed tracks

Technical tracks in the game I also fare better with a car which understeer on power, over off power.

Chat more when I get home. Just submitted my project,ain't looking good

Regards,
Alvin
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Old 12-06-2001, 11:24 PM   #13
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More notes on my car. The 04 comes stock with -2 degree rear toe in. With the 2-degree toe in there is a tendency for the car to "want" to go straight. Well this is how I feel. This effect occurs in certain corners in my track and it tends to slow the car. I haven't got around to purchasing some -1 degree blocks to try though. I believe that setting the camber links could lessen this effect to a certain degree.

About the gripping thing, I can't really make 100% sure but if it's the same set of tires, if the roll centre front/rear are higher, my car feels like it has more "grip", it will not spin easily, unless hardbraking + turn in. I also feel it is a bit slow to drive as it tends to understeer. The front roll centre I don't play much. The turn in feels confident enough for me. But changing it to the inner link reduces the turn in. And the lower link bottoms out my car. Guess I still can't setit up properly.

~Alvin
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Old 12-07-2001, 12:00 AM   #14
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So Novarossi, you finally decided to read up on the subject.
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Old 12-07-2001, 01:07 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sydewynder
So Novarossi, you finally decided to read up on the subject.
It took a few weeks, and some experiemental runs, but now understand it.

I know, I know, Im a slow learner
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