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Old 07-29-2007, 10:57 AM   #16
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i'm a huge fan of brushless, and i think this is a huge mistake.. we need hard and fast design specs in order to gain acceptance and grow the hobby....
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Old 07-29-2007, 11:32 AM   #17
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i'm a huge fan of brushless, and i think this is a huge mistake.. we need hard and fast design specs in order to gain acceptance and grow the hobby....
Just out of curiosity, why? If you're talking stock/19T equivalence sure I kind of get that. Mod, there should be no limitations whatsoever. When it comes to stock and 19T I'm getting less concerned about integration into existing classes and more for doing something new. No one will ever be satisfied with mixing brushed and brushless anyway - just look at every thread discussing brushless innovation and you'll find plenty of people who will argue against its acceptance no matter what happens in the future. Funny how a lot of the anti crowd has some sort of brushed motor company name in their sig.....hmmm.
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Old 07-29-2007, 11:43 AM   #18
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Let's put this into perspective:

Back when I was running brushed mod sedan and brushed mod buggy, I broke down the motor maintenance costs and I was spending $2 - $3 every time I ran my car. With BL, I got 100+ runs out of my first motor before I bought a new one and that was only because I wanted the next gen motor, not because my old BL motor crapped out on me. BL has made racing so much cheaper that splurging on a new sintered rotor every once in a while can't be used as proof that BL isn't significantly cheaper than brushed. How this affects the spec classes, on the other hand, is a whole other ball of wax.
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Old 07-29-2007, 12:18 PM   #19
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Another brushless gizmo hits the market .... I thought this was going to make racing easier and cheaper with less stuff to buy ...
I may be prejudiced, but I believe that the brushless technology has more than fulfilled its promise. It has actually exceeded those early expectations in every way.

In fact, it is now the responsibility of BL critics to explain why BL is not easier and cheaper with much less stuff to buy.
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Old 07-29-2007, 12:59 PM   #20
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Just out of curiosity, why? If you're talking stock/19T equivalence sure I kind of get that. Mod, there should be no limitations whatsoever. When it comes to stock and 19T I'm getting less concerned about integration into existing classes and more for doing something new. No one will ever be satisfied with mixing brushed and brushless anyway - just look at every thread discussing brushless innovation and you'll find plenty of people who will argue against its acceptance no matter what happens in the future. Funny how a lot of the anti crowd has some sort of brushed motor company name in their sig.....hmmm.
as you said, this has a very real impact on 2 of the 3 classes we have, stock and 19t.. so now if this proves to be of real bennefit, everyone has to go buy a new rotor? what happens when the 13.6mm rotor comes out? or maybe an 11.9mm for those lower torque applications? are we going to go from a box of motors to a box with one can and 5 rotors? can this rotor be teched so we don't have to dissassemble cars in spec classes? in short, it is simply more of what a lot of us are trying to escape.. the motor of the week.. only now with a higher price tag.. we needed rules for this about a year ago..

leodis, i was on pace to get a lot of runs from my motor too, now i need a new rotor apparently...
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:14 PM   #21
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Please...please...stop whining...seriously.

If having a stronger magnet or larger rotors were the hot ticket, then P2Ks, Core Stocks and Mambas would be the kick-ass motors. It's an option...maybe it will work for you, maybe it won't...either way, nobody is forcing you to buy it and you'll probably still be getting beat by someone who doesn't have it.
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:24 PM   #22
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nobody is whining, he asked why someone would be opposed to it.. now you know.. theya re called "spec" classes.. or used to be..
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:42 PM   #23
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tallyrc - Since I never did any spec racing, I've been trying to get a handle on how all the changes effect the ones who do. At this point is it really more expensive when you have to consider not only maintenance and equipment prices but also time? And how many motors do you go through in say a year running brushed in those classes?

I dropped brushed and nimh the second I realized that with my car and 3 kids' cars I was spending more time with motors and batteries than racing and enjoying the experience with them. The less time you spend with motors is more time spent improving your driving which more me translates to more fun.

BTW, I hope you realize I didn't think you were whining.
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:46 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by NovakTwo View Post
I may be prejudiced, but I believe that the brushless technology has more than fulfilled its promise. It has actually exceeded those early expectations in every way.

In fact, it is now the responsibility of BL critics to explain why BL is not easier and cheaper with much less stuff to buy.
Not only less to buy. More time to do everything other than motor maintenance. Maybe they can't figure out what to do with all the free time brushless will leave them???
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:50 PM   #25
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5 & 6 cell TC use which gear ratio ?
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Old 07-29-2007, 01:56 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by kuzo View Post
tallyrc - Since I never did any spec racing, I've been trying to get a handle on how all the changes effect the ones who do. At this point is it really more expensive when you have to consider not only maintenance and equipment prices but also time? And how many motors do you go through in say a year running brushed in those classes?

I dropped brushed and nimh the second I realized that with my car and 3 kids' cars I was spending more time with motors and batteries than racing and enjoying the experience with them. The less time you spend with motors is more time spent improving your driving which more me translates to more fun.

BTW, I hope you realize I didn't think you were whining.
i couldn't agree more. i haven't really run brushed motors in about two years with the exception of when i'm forced to.. simply put, my hope is that with some hard and fast rules in place for brusless classes, one motor will truely be adequate for competitive racing for a good while. i may not be the fastest guy in the world, but i am certainly competitive, and gaining tenths of a second per lap is the world at some tracks.. i also have young kids (3y/o twins in fact) and a wife that works nights so toiling in my basement for hours building/cleaning motors is no longer an option..
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Old 07-29-2007, 03:27 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by tallyrc View Post
nobody is whining, he asked why someone would be opposed to it.. now you know.. theya re called "spec" classes.. or used to be..
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as you said, this has a very real impact on 2 of the 3 classes we have, stock and 19t.. so now if this proves to be of real bennefit, everyone has to go buy a new rotor? what happens when the 13.6mm rotor comes out? or maybe an 11.9mm for those lower torque applications? are we going to go from a box of motors to a box with one can and 5 rotors? can this rotor be teched so we don't have to dissassemble cars in spec classes? in short, it is simply more of what a lot of us are trying to escape.. the motor of the week.. only now with a higher price tag.. we needed rules for this about a year ago..

leodis, i was on pace to get a lot of runs from my motor too, now i need a new rotor apparently...
Sounds like whining to me. (shrugs shoulders)

It's like sitting in the drive-thru at McDonald's complaining that you have to buy the large fries. Not only do you not have to buy it...it's not at all certain whether it will (in fact) be of any benefit to you if you do buy it.

"Somebody stop me before I buy again!"
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Old 07-29-2007, 04:16 PM   #28
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Back when I raced with brushed motors in spec classes I would usually buy a motor (maybe two) for the season, then a couple extra arms (at $15 a pop). I would also have to buy a seasons worth of brushes, motor springs and shims (which all add up in cost). Then spend hours tuning, cutting, shimming, etc. Swaping out arms because I didn't want to lug around my comm lathe with me to the track everyweek. Then, don't forget about the comm lubes. The next season, I would have to buy all that stuff again. It was a pretty large expense.

Now, with brushless I have one motor and that's it. I haven't even taken it out of my car since I've put it in there. It's worked flawless now for at least 50 runs. I haven't had to spend any time tuning, truing, or shiming. All that time that was spent working on the motor can now be spent on the track, or on tuning the car itself. So, if I have to spend $30 a season on a new, improved rotor (then install and forget about it) to stay competitive... that's nothing compared to the time and money spent on a brushed system.

Even the initial cost of a competitive brushed system and all the required accesories to keep it running at peak performance is more expensive than the brushless counterpart.

I think the brushed motor builders/tuners hate brushless motors because they can't make money off of them. Eventually they will be out of business because the brushed demand will decrease to the point where there just isn't enough money flowing in. This is very unfortunate, but it's also evolution. If you can't find away to stay in the game, then you will become extinct.

-Frank
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Old 07-29-2007, 04:26 PM   #29
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Technology will never, ever, ever stand still. The sooner we all realize and accept that, the easier out lives will be. None of us will ever see a technology so great that it can no longer be improved upon.

I mean, come on, lets be serious. After well over a year of running their brushless motors all over the world, Novak finds one minor thing to tweak to improve the motors and stay ahead of the competition, and now the sky is falling? Really?

The original sintered rotor should go down in history as one of the greatest things to ever happen to R/C. It truly brought brushless motors into the limelight, and has got to be the longest lasting "consumable" part in a motor ever. The fact that Novak found a way to improve on something that so greatly enhanced our hobby is cause for celebration, not bitching and crying.
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Old 07-29-2007, 04:39 PM   #30
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it's a $30 upgrade... some people on here buy heatsinks for their wires. it's not that big of a cost.
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