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Old 07-19-2007, 11:48 AM   #46
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I was hoping the thread wouldn't turn into a foam vs. rubber debate but oh well.

I'm just curious Mr. Mx, have you actually attended Cleveland? Most years the Master's A top 5-6 is fast enough to make the Stock A against the kids and "sponsored" stock drivers. A year or two ago the top 3 in Masters were faster than the Stock TQ.

I'm with Ian about not have 102 classes of touring car so that everyone feels included. Cleveland is what it is, the largest foam tire onroad event in the world , and it has been for a long time. Why mess with tradition?

As for you comment about "lazy Americans", I run both types of tire on my touring cars. Both have challenges in setting them up. Neither is any harder or easier, just different. I despise the blanket statement that foam haters like to troll out about "just throw foam tires on and it drives itself", rubbish. A tire is a tire, they all have different traction characteristics, maximum slip angles, heat ranges, and wear life. I'll race no matter what tire is required or chosen, I've learned enough to figure out how to make either type work.

I'm done now, thank you for your time.

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Old 07-19-2007, 12:01 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by JonnySocko View Post
I'm just curious Mr. Mx, have you actually attended Cleveland? Most years the Master's A top 5-6 is fast enough to make the Stock A against the kids and "sponsored" stock drivers. A year or two ago the top 3 in Masters were faster than the Stock TQ.
Doesnt that prove the point that it is unnecessary?

I will say though I think if you got rid of the masters class there would be people who would stop attending. Im not sure by adding a rubber class that all you guys against it would actually stop attending. Unless more then 50% of the people actually moved to the rubber class and you refuse to race somewhere there isnt a Z main.

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Old 07-19-2007, 12:34 PM   #48
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Easy kids, there is a simple solution for this matter: Do the pros outweigh the cons to having a rubber tire stock class at the champs?

1) Last time I checked, the track that is created by Mr. Bill and company for the champs would be to tight for rubber tire stock. So if it were to happen, they would have to build a bigger track. Hence, burden # 1.

2) The indoor champs is prestigious for being the only race in the U.S that in terms of touring and 12 scale, is a true foam tire race. Burden #2, does the race lose credibility because it might be extended?

3) Foam tire guys hate rubber tires....Rubber tire guys hate foam tires. The atmosphere wouldnt be pretty.

4) As someone posted earlier, if you want to race rubber tires on carpet, go to the IIC, Novak, or Snowbirds race. Or, try and petition the idea to roar as an additional class the the carpet nationals.

Bottom line, all of you know the decision is up to Mr. Bill.
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Old 07-19-2007, 12:46 PM   #49
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Well, Here's my two cents on the current class structure. Masters is a perfectly viable class, has been for MANY years, hell even ROAR has Masters classes. If there are any classes I feel are unnecessary at the Champs, it's both 19 turn classes. If you wanna a level palying field equipment wise run stock, if you want all out, no holds barred speed run Mod. 19 turn is just a class that allows all the fast stock and fast Mod guys to get a little extra track time. Foam isn't really any easier to set-up than rubber, with rubber tire you're trying to find traction so your car can corner quickly, with foams you're trying to find the exact balance w/in the abundance of traction that allows your car to corner quickly. Just as hard, but completely different like my boy Socko said.

If you've never been to the Champs, you need to get there. If you've never run foams, you need to try it. I run rubber at our parking lot races, and I don't care for it. I run foams on carpet and asphalt whenever I can, and I love it.

But back to the point, Cleveland is ALL ABOUT TRADITION. It's been AWESOME every year I've attended, We don't need to add anymore classes to screw it up. If we were gonna add anything I'd vote for 18th scale touring car, but that'd have to be a foam class too.......
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Old 07-19-2007, 12:48 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Alex Lopez View Post
Easy kids, there is a simple solution for this matter: Do the pros outweigh the cons to having a rubber tire stock class at the champs?

1) Last time I checked, the track that is created by Mr. Bill and company for the champs would be to tight for rubber tire stock. So if it were to happen, they would have to build a bigger track. Hence, burden # 1.

2) The indoor champs is prestigious for being the only race in the U.S that in terms of touring and 12 scale, is a true foam tire race. Burden #2, does the race lose credibility because it might be extended?

3) Foam tire guys hate rubber tires....Rubber tire guys hate foam tires. The atmosphere wouldnt be pretty.

4) As someone posted earlier, if you want to race rubber tires on carpet, go to the IIC, Novak, or Snowbirds race. Or, try and petition the idea to roar as an additional class the the carpet nationals.

Bottom line, all of you know the decision is up to Mr. Bill.
I was typing when you posted this. Well put bro.
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Old 07-19-2007, 12:53 PM   #51
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Old 07-19-2007, 01:07 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by or8ital View Post
Doesnt that prove the point that it is unnecessary?

I will say though I think if you got rid of the masters class there would be people who would stop attending. Im not sure by adding a rubber class that all you guys against it would actually stop attending. Unless more then 50% of the people actually moved to the rubber class and you refuse to race somewhere there isnt a Z main.
I agree with you Or8ital, if masters was removed some people would not attend.

By my count there are 2 classes that are worthless at Cleveland. Both masters. How about you drop the masters classes and Run rubber. Make the old guys take their spankings like the rest of the less gifted. Now they can have an excuse for not winning. "But dear, they made us race against everyone else this year. I could only bring home this E main trophy."


My point with Mx was that he was inferring that Masters should be removed since the drivers are old and slow, hardly the case.

To answer A-Lo, I don't hate rubber tires, I actually enjoy running them sometimes for the different challenges.

Lana,
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Old 07-19-2007, 02:01 PM   #53
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Originally Posted by Mr. Mxyzptlk View Post
Rubber tire is harder to set up a car, typical lazy Americans always want the easy way out.
Wow...no clue whatsoever. Let's see you set up a stock foam TC that can make an A-main.
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Old 07-19-2007, 02:11 PM   #54
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LOL
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Old 07-19-2007, 03:48 PM   #55
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yeah rubber tire! I would love to see a rubber tire class at cleveland.
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Old 07-19-2007, 05:30 PM   #56
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I agree with both Alex and Ian. Cleveland is about carpet with foam tires. It's about tradition and about the Midwest. It's what we run in this part of out world. We already have enough classes, the race already takes up enough days and we love every minute of it. I don't want Cleveland to be diluted by all this "exhibition", "rubber tires" and all that other nonsense. If you want to run rubber tires run on asphalt or go down to the Snowbirds or the Novak race.
If you got rid of the Master's class you would be turning away from all the old school racers that have supported the race for years and have made it and seen it built into what it is today "THE" premier foam tire race in the world.
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Old 07-19-2007, 05:54 PM   #57
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... and have made it and seen it built into what it is today "THE" premier foam tire race in the world.
Thats the IIC mate.

Cleveland is just a big local foam tire race now. Tradition is the only reason it is still big.
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Old 07-19-2007, 06:20 PM   #58
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If you can see, I said it was the premier "foam tire race in the world"
The IIC runs rubbers also so it's not an all foam tire race. If by calling it local you mean the entire U.S. the I guess it's local. If you look at the results on both the IIC and the Indoor Champs it's pretty much the same pro names in the foam class so both races draw the same pros for the foam class. The rubber class is what all the international guys ran with the exception of a small few.
I would also disagree that tradition is the ONLY reason it's still big.

BTW, have you ever been to the Indoor Champs?
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Old 07-19-2007, 06:34 PM   #59
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No, I have not been but I have sent racers there and I know a lot of other racers that have been there and now choose to go to other races.
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Old 07-19-2007, 06:36 PM   #60
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I think they should run rubber tire at Cleveland because it is cheaper to run because you don't have to buy foam tires and turn them down to next nothing and use several sets. Buy one set of rubber tires and you're good for the weekend. The majority of the world runs rubber tires everywhere.

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