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Old 07-12-2007, 06:24 PM   #31
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Ok this hasn't really been explained well enough yet...let me get this straight.

If I have a once in a life time insanely good run and go 1 lap over the max number of laps I don't win?!?!?! Is that what you guys are saying? That's just crazy. I could see where if that happened I'd win but the next race I'd get bumped up a class but don't take the win away...that's just wrong.

As a race director I would hate to do either the min lap or max laps...too much administrative night mare. Not to mention you have to be the one to tell the guy he didn't win because his fastest laps were too fast and didn't count. If I were that racer and that happened to me I would feel like decking the guy and probably wouldn't race there again. Also the only places that could do something like that would be permanent tracks that never change or you could never establish a true baseline lap of the track. Also you would have to have enough racers to be able to run a sportsman and an expert for the same class. As I see it that's what the mains are for anyway. So instead of an A and a B main you end up with an A main sportsman and an A main expert...either way it is the same result just with different names.
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Old 07-12-2007, 06:31 PM   #32
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On the breakout question...

No it won't fix anything.

Probably cause more problems than 4 cell TC.
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Old 07-12-2007, 06:39 PM   #33
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One thing I see as killing racing in general is people and/or shops setting unrealistic expectations. When I first started out racing I expected to be in the D main and not the A. I never expected with so little experience that I could even remotely compete with guys who have been racing 10+ years or guys who practice 3 times a week. But I would set a goal to get up to the next main and work on it until I'd make it. These days it seems that a lot of new drivers go out and buy a bunch of stuff get out on the track and expect to keep up with the fast guys. Then they get frustrated when they can't. So they blame it on the equipment since the fast guys can afford all the expensive stuff when experience is the real issue. I remember back when F1 was still popular out here we had essentially an expert and sportsman class. I normally run in the higher class but was given a Nikko F1 car and thought it would be fun to drive the car in the lower class. I didn't expect it to keep up at all...but I ended up leading the race by quite a bit until a tire (didn't glue it) came off the rim.

So to sum up my point...we need to all help make sure newer drivers set reasonable expectations, help them become become better, and congradulate them on their achievements no matter how small.
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Old 07-12-2007, 06:45 PM   #34
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To all the guys who say breakout racing won't or can't work.........

Have you done it?

Simple question, answer yes, or no. If you haven't done it and say it can't or won't work, isn't that being a bit naive?

Now I have to admit that I haven't done it with RC, but I have with full size drag racing (15 years worth), and slot cars. Lots of fun with either.

If you are in this to *race*, breakout racing is cheap, and loads of fun. Like it's already been said, after people get it figured out, you'll never know who is going to win.

If you are the "mama, I wanna go fast" type, great. Go strap a big motor in your car and run it up and down the street. You'll go way faster than on most race tracks. Have fun, it's all good.

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Old 07-13-2007, 02:00 AM   #35
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InspGadgt and others...

I think one of the problems with topics on some of these forums is that when people bring up ideas - other people always seem to assume this is something being proposed for THIER class, when all too often it's being aimed at classes for NEWBIES or Less Experienced people in a lot of cases..and really wouldn't affect 90+ % of the people who leave negative comments.

To WIN a breakout class - you have to WIN iT based on the rules set forth in the class. If you go faster than those rules - than you don't belong in that class.

Some guys choose to run in breakout classes, even though they have been racing for years... WHY? Because they can get a setup that won't quite breakout w/o having to work nearly as hard as running a HOT CLASS...and they can do it w/ OLD equipment. Thus making the racing a little less work and headache...and making it a little more FUN.

I guess you'd says it's like "Different strokes for different folks" NOT EVERYONE races to go the fastest the can possibly go - some race to have a good friendly competition with friends...and enjoy this hobby.
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:36 AM   #36
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NOT EVERYONE races to go the fastest the can possibly go - some race to have a good friendly competition with friends...and enjoy this hobby.
Yes.

This fact is lost on some. I've seen there's a lot of racers (maybe even the majority ?) who fall between backyard bashers and regular travelling racers... who just enjoy close competition. They don't have big racing budgets, or much time to race more than once every 2 weeks, but they like to come out regularly and have fun. Most of them enjoy the thrill of competition most.

Do you think cycling would have 150,000 amateur licenses if they didn't have Pro Tier I, II, III and Amateur Cat 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 brackets? How big would triathalons, running, etc. be if you didn't have age groupings? What if every race you attended you had to compete against Lance Armstrong or the latest Ironman winner? I think if most people would admit it, they much prefer close competition to getting crushed like a bug.

In some places, where they actually do run brackets, there is GROWTH in entries and in particular many NEW racers are showing up... and staying. It might seem to splinters things at first, making A-D mains two A-B's... but the payoff could be bigger races in the future.

If your attendance is down, it might not hurt to try something new
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:41 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by InspGadgt View Post
Ok this hasn't really been explained well enough yet...let me get this straight.

If I have a once in a life time insanely good run and go 1 lap over the max number of laps I don't win?!?!?! Is that what you guys are saying? That's just crazy. I could see where if that happened I'd win but the next race I'd get bumped up a class but don't take the win away...that's just wrong.
Our rule is like you would want. You get 2 chances... break out for overall race laps twice, and twice means 2 different heats or mains, and you're bumped up. For instance in sportsman our current layout has a 14 / 5:10 breakout. We had a couple folks beat the breakout in 2 different heats at states, so from now on they're up a bracket. And Yes, they still get to keep the trophies !!! But now someone else gets a chance to win in the lower class.
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:48 AM   #38
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isn't it up to the race directors discretion what class a racer runs in? my local track will bump people up to a higher class if they are too fast. i've seen it happen between heats to sandbaggers.

it used to be a big deal and a proud day when the race director said you were ready for expert and bumped you.
It sounds great but what if the guy who will go to an advanced class doesn't want to go? How the race director car force him? At the end it might a reason for the driver to leave

I'm facing the above dilemma. We do have 2 classes expert novice with some small differences (like motor limit, 1 set compared to 2). The main reason the making 2 classes was to give the opportunity for other drivers, and newcomers of course, than the usual ones the opportunity to win a race or finish high. Problem that arises now is that there 2-3 people that are domination the novice class and I don't know how to forbid them from running next year again on novice class
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Old 07-13-2007, 09:47 AM   #39
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Problem that arises now is that there 2-3 people that are domination the novice class and I don't know how to forbid them from running next year again on novice class
Well if you have a "breakout" then if they go too fast they're out.

We also have a clause allowing the director/race committee to move someone up based on good judgement. Novice is just that, new and relatively unskilled.

Just post your rules, then follow them. Some people may leave, you can't help it, you have to do what's best overall for the club. Some people will fight for every inch and be difficult. You're in charge, just make things clear and EXECUTE the rules. It may help to have a "race committee 2-3 other veterans who if there's a problem with someone they can be the "complaint dept" take the other fella aside and help him understand these are the rules so you're not feeling the brunt of someone all yourself.

By the way, if they're already dominant, it's already time to tell them at the next race, "congratulations fellas, you're obviously great drivers, and you've really dominated the novice class, so obviously you're too good for this class any more. You get to move up to expert now !!!" Then stand your ground and put them in the computer under expert, that's all you can do.

I believe you'll ALWAYS gain more drivers by following through and standing on what's right, than the few whiners you might lose along the way. People appreciate it when you stand up to sandbaggers !
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Old 07-13-2007, 10:50 AM   #40
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Quote:
It sounds great but what if the guy who will go to an advanced class doesn't want to go? How the race director car force him? At the end it might a reason for the driver to leave
Well, the way to NOT be forced to move up - is NOT to break out. If you are on the edge of breaking out - slow your car down...drop a tooth or what ever it takes...it's actually pretty simple.

Sometimes the 'breakout' for a particular class can be re-evaluated as well. If a whole group improves as a group then you could say go from a 14/5:10 breakout rule to a 14/5:05 rule, or what ever is needed w/o making huge changes. (That would allow approx. a .4 second faster average lap)
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Old 07-13-2007, 11:56 AM   #41
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I think breakout or bracket racing can work. What does it solve? Well, if the min lap time is 15 seconds some guys might need a T2 with a GTB brushless system to be competitive, while others may only need a TA05 and any old stocker. It can level the playing field.

Its a better alternative than stock which is ridiculously fast and too difficult and time consuming for any beginner. And it will be faster and more entertaining for those who want to race something more than a $75 Tamiya prodeuct equiped with silver can motor.

And it solves the now paralyzing problem of brushed vs brushless, stock vs 19t vs mod, rubber vs foams, because if I understand it correctly, anything goes so long as its not too fast.

But its far from perfect either - There could be a huge disparity in speeds of the vehicles will may result in more accidents.

But, its all a bandaid until someone can make a tire or car or class that is fast, has tremendous amounts of traction, and does not require significant amounts of maintenance.

Fast cars that hook up and dont break using tires that last a long time is the recipe for success.

Now, how do we get there?
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Old 07-13-2007, 12:41 PM   #42
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I think breakout or bracket racing can work. What does it solve? Well, if the min lap time is 15 seconds some guys might need a T2 with a GTB brushless system to be competitive, while others may only need a TA05 and any old stocker. It can level the playing field.

Its a better alternative than stock which is ridiculously fast and too difficult and time consuming for any beginner. And it will be faster and more entertaining for those who want to race something more than a $75 Tamiya prodeuct equiped with silver can motor.

And it solves the now paralyzing problem of brushed vs brushless, stock vs 19t vs mod, rubber vs foams, because if I understand it correctly, anything goes so long as its not too fast.

But its far from perfect either - There could be a huge disparity in speeds of the vehicles will may result in more accidents.

But, its all a bandaid until someone can make a tire or car or class that is fast, has tremendous amounts of traction, and does not require significant amounts of maintenance.

Fast cars that hook up and dont break using tires that last a long time is the recipe for success.

Now, how do we get there?
Yep we allow whatever someone wants. Having a 4.5 brushless race with a stock motor can be interesting at times but if someone causes an accident from not being able to keep a fast car under control then we issue stop and go penalties. After a few of those they usually learn to dial the throttle back on the straight away or to pass on the outside.
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Old 07-13-2007, 01:42 PM   #43
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InspGadgt and others...

I think one of the problems with topics on some of these forums is that when people bring up ideas - other people always seem to assume this is something being proposed for THIER class, when all too often it's being aimed at classes for NEWBIES or Less Experienced people in a lot of cases..and really wouldn't affect 90+ % of the people who leave negative comments.

I guess you'd says it's like "Different strokes for different folks" NOT EVERYONE races to go the fastest the can possibly go - some race to have a good friendly competition with friends...and enjoy this hobby.
On the first part...that assumes you have enough people to run a class for the less experienced drivers. If you only have 8 people in a class it really doesn't make sense to break it up into 2 classes.

On the second part...I totally agree. I rarely ever win a race but always enjoy it for the friendly competition regardless of where I place.
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Old 07-13-2007, 01:44 PM   #44
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Our rule is like you would want. You get 2 chances... break out for overall race laps twice, and twice means 2 different heats or mains, and you're bumped up. For instance in sportsman our current layout has a 14 / 5:10 breakout. We had a couple folks beat the breakout in 2 different heats at states, so from now on they're up a bracket. And Yes, they still get to keep the trophies !!! But now someone else gets a chance to win in the lower class.
That makes sense to me. I could go with that.
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Old 07-13-2007, 08:27 PM   #45
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Jeff talks a little about this on the 'after hours' segment just put on
http://www.rctvlive.com. Check it out... new show also being produced now and sould be on-line a few days!
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