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Old 07-13-2007, 12:28 AM   #136
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Why discuss anything about Touring Cars? Let's get back on track shall we? One person doesn't understand that others would like to see 10th Pan come back to racing so let's drop the debate or start another thread somewhere else please.

Would someone care to explain why there are 235mm / 200mm / and 190mm versions out there?
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Old 07-13-2007, 12:32 AM   #137
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10th sc pan cars will give you some of the closest racing with the least amount of support time between races of any cars. The 12th sc cars are too squirrly.

I want to run these with brushless motors with LiPo batteries, say, 10 minute heats and mains and GTP bodies. Which is very do-able these days.

Lets bring them back !!
We would be looking at an open qualifying session to set fastest single lap. Then one long race of 45 min. or two 30 min. races. One should be able to get 20 minutes + from today's batteries/motors easy.
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Old 07-13-2007, 01:54 AM   #138
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We would be looking at an open qualifying session to set fastest single lap. Then one long race of 45 min. or two 30 min. races. One should be able to get 20 minutes + from today's batteries/motors easy.
I like the idea of qualifying depending on one lap.
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:41 AM   #139
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Originally Posted by slcf1 View Post
Why discuss anything about Touring Cars? Let's get back on track shall we? One person doesn't understand that others would like to see 10th Pan come back to racing so let's drop the debate or start another thread somewhere else please.

Would someone care to explain why there are 235mm / 200mm / and 190mm versions out there?
That's the point...pan cars do need an upgrade. Why keep them with the same old design of 10 yrs ago? I agree with John Stranahan that pan cars need to be inproved in design- like other cars(TC's) keep trying to find better suspension design to optimized geometry, traction, handling, durability, ease of maintanace, etc, amongst the many things about Touring car chassis that have evolved and improved dramatically over the years...but what has happened to pan cars? Same old design...the only different innovative design I have seen is from Corally with that 12X 1/12 car...there's a bit of difference and innovation- a step forward at least in looks. So why still use the old AE, or worse the sorry front end on Speedmerchant 1/10 pan car- that's old and it sucks. THe point is to make it better.
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:50 AM   #140
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Would someone care to explain why there are 235mm / 200mm / and 190mm versions out there?
i'm not positive, but the original Pro10's were 235mm like 10l's, and the narrower ones came out later.. like associated's RC10L3T (190mm) was intended to be run with a touring body.. the "true" pan car class are the 235mm cars though.. actually ~235mm in the rear and ~212mm in the front.. the wide cars are much faster on asphalt.. there are some 200mm cars also that are made i guess for running nitro sedan bodies. again, on asphalt, they really need the high downforce bodies though..
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Old 07-13-2007, 07:54 AM   #141
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True pan cars and TCs handle differently. Pan cars are much more precise and require you to be a smooth driver to drive well. TCs are much easier to drive because the 4wd makes up for a lot of things. You compared them yourself so I am just responding to that comparison. TCs do have a more complex suspension but that is not always better. More complexity leads to more points of failure, more points of slop, and a more complicated setup. Heck if you want a really complex suspension look at a Tamiya F201 with it's cantilever suspension.



You brought up the cost comparison. In doing so you must consider the total cost of racing one class VS racing the other. Ok now if a TC kit is a pro and a pan car kit was simple...which was the pro when there was no TCs? Pan cars may have a less complex suspension but there is nothing simple about them. As you point out they are more difficult to drive. Because they are so quick and responsive it is that much more critical to get the right driving line through a corner. Pan cars aren't so simple as they look either. Every small adjustment you make on the car has much more of an effect then they do on a TC.



And that's cool that you enjoy TCs more then pan cars. However you can't go around implying that a TC's "beauty and handling charateristicts" are better then that of a pan car and not expect a rebuttal since by race standards the handling characteristics of a pan car on a high bite track are better then that of a TC. As for beauty I find pan cars much more beautiful as they look much more like a pure bred racing machine where a TC looks like something you'd see driving down the freeway...just gussied up a bit. But that's just my opinion.
Again bro, I think you miss the point. I am talking about my pan cars and my TC's...what I have experienced in my tests with my cars...not yours, or anyone elses...My statements are not general. In general, yes, pan cars are much better handling- they have more corner speed and crazy steering and turn-in ability. A well set-up pan car will be faster than any mod nitro or electric TC...heck even some 1/8th...they are a bit easier to set up- I know...and yes, in general they are much cheaper to run and maintain. And I enjoy driving both! I love pan cars! but like I said, and I still have my CRC Pantoura and it can take on anything...but for me...its not what I'd mainly like to run if I had a choice between the two- if I could only afford one of to run/keep one of them...I'd rather run my MI3. However I love my CRC Pantoura, and will take it to the track and shock a few "fast" people...you know what I'm talking about? And the reason is because there is no pan car racing in south Florida...I tried to get something going a few yrs ago but it didnt fly. So that's another factor for me...
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Old 07-13-2007, 08:20 AM   #142
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Old 07-13-2007, 10:55 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by yyhayyim View Post
pan cars need to be inproved in design- like other cars(TC's) keep trying to find better suspension design to optimized geometry, traction, handling, durability, ease of maintanace, etc, amongst the many things about Touring car chassis that have evolved and improved dramatically over the years...but what has happened to pan cars? Same old design...the only different innovative design I have seen is from Corally with that 12X 1/12 car...there's a bit of difference and innovation- a step forward at least in looks. So why still use the old AE, or worse the sorry front end on Speedmerchant 1/10 pan car- that's old and it sucks. THe point is to make it better.
from one touring car to the next where exactly has the layout changed? don't be fooled by the smoke and mirors.. the geometry may change and the balance may change, but "inovation" in touring cars is a myth.. it evolution, not revolution.. why does everyone say they all look alike?.. the subtle differences between touring cars are the same as the subtle differences between pan cars.. there are different front ends, there are different rear ends, there are link systems, there are pivot ball systems, there are t-plate systems, there are different systems for locating batteries. everything.. maybe the question is why with all the technology of modern touring cars they can't keep up with a design perfected 15-20 years ago? keep in mind also that this thread is intended as a discussion for people (the countless people) that are fed up with the bloated prices, of money and time hogging touring cars. perhaps if the pan cars come back into favor, manufacturers will follow suit and you will get some more evolution.. maybe even a revolution.. till xray makes one that costs $1000 dollars with $15 dollar arms that is..
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Old 07-13-2007, 11:29 AM   #144
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I like the idea of qualifying depending on one lap.
It's nice. You enter the track when you want to. Set what you think might be your fastest lap (which in our case the computer calls out fastest lap times) and then you might have a minute or two to better the lap. It's kinda like the current F1 quali system.

We also ditch practice and lengthen the session... maybe 10 minutes. You get a clear track and boom... there's pole. Also the next two races are just that. Not qualifying twice but just once. Try it sometime. It's really popular with the club.
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Old 07-13-2007, 11:32 AM   #145
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i'm not positive, but the original Pro10's were 235mm like 10l's, and the narrower ones came out later.. like associated's RC10L3T (190mm) was intended to be run with a touring body.. the "true" pan car class are the 235mm cars though.. actually ~235mm in the rear and ~212mm in the front.. the wide cars are much faster on asphalt.. there are some 200mm cars also that are made i guess for running nitro sedan bodies. again, on asphalt, they really need the high downforce bodies though..
Thanks! Forgive my naivety.

235mm is the true Pro10. Europe calls them Pro10 right? Is the rear pod the same for 12th and Pro10 then? I have lots of 12th stuff... conversion kits for AE or Trinity 12th's out there?
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Old 07-13-2007, 11:35 AM   #146
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Old 07-13-2007, 11:53 AM   #147
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Thanks! Forgive my naivety.

235mm is the true Pro10. Europe calls them Pro10 right? Is the rear pod the same for 12th and Pro10 then? I have lots of 12th stuff... conversion kits for AE or Trinity 12th's out there?
there are many (most) parts in common, but they are not identical.. it may be possible to convert to wide but will certainly require some shimming of the axle and probably a long pinion which is not ideal. to get to a narrow pan car is pretty easy. in fact, my 10l3t uses a 12th axle and left hub. the right would need to be shimmed likely.. the motor mount and right pod plate are the same on the newer cars.. to go wide from a 12th using something like the PRC Max10 kit would cost the kit $100 (chassis pod top and bottom and chassis brace) 2 side shocks, wide axles and hub setup ($52 complete) and maybe a t-bar.. so if you have been running any sort of newer pan car you can have a pro10 in 235mm trim for ~150 - $200 depending on what you have laying around.. i am trying to compose complete lists of everything needed to build a wide car from parts (basically a universal parts list) over in the PRO10 thread hidden in the oval section (for some reason).. post number 13259 on page 442..
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Old 07-13-2007, 12:02 PM   #148
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I can tell most of you have really never raced a 10 scale pancar, the car will work on almost any surface. Yes the touring car will out perform a pancar on a low traction condition, but not on medium and up traction level.

A six cell stock motored pancar will out handle, out accelerate any mod touring car( of course not on a unpreppared track).

All you guys that are complaining about how hard the cars are to drive have no idea , tell that to everyone that ever raced at the hieght of pancar racing.

Everyone was a newbie at one point with a pancar and did fine, some our the cream of the crop in touring now. We ran pancars on parking lots like touring but of course we prepped the surface's, but consider the tires were'nt as good back then , the cars were extreemly quick and would have high speed blow overs. When is the last time you saw that happen to a touring car, very rarely if they brush the boards its usually a roll over. Pancars could go 6' + in the air. All due to the speeds.

I would however like to try the cars 190 mm with adapter to run touring tires. I would bet 4 cell with a 10.5 brushless system would be nice. Maybe have touring mod speeds with lipo 13.5 or 10.5 would be a hell of alot cheaper to maintain.



@ yyhayyim I'll bet you $500.00 that a pancar with a six cell nimh batteries and a roar 27t or 19t mod powered pancar can stomp your 3.5 powered lipo schumacher touring car at coral springs.

GUys I would like direct drive car to come back, I have a narrow 911 gt1 one porsche ready to roll ! Does anyone actually know who may make the adapters to run radial touring tires on a pancar. I know they are very populer in Asia.
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Old 07-13-2007, 12:08 PM   #149
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Thanks! Forgive my naivety.

235mm is the true Pro10. Europe calls them Pro10 right? Is the rear pod the same for 12th and Pro10 then? I have lots of 12th stuff... conversion kits for AE or Trinity 12th's out there?
Take a visit thru Niftech, Irs, or any oval pancar site they have many different size hubs to get varying width's. Plus try the car in 190 format the rear end is actually 200mm so they really arent 190. I can tell you the narrow car is as fast if not a slight bit faster on a sweeping high speed track and equal on shorter ones. Wether you go 190 or 235 just enjoy it.
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Old 07-13-2007, 12:20 PM   #150
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buds used to make the touring car wheel adaptors, but no longer.. i've never seen them anywhere else.. the f103's run touring rubber.. and ironically you can adaptors to run pan tires on them, but they end up wide with the offsets.. my RC10L3t is exactly 190mm with full pan tires..
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