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Old 01-03-2008, 03:41 AM   #181
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These motors are popular because the manufacturers marketed them very well. They themselves pushed the "equivalent" bit knowing full well the brushless had an advantage. Once some people had bought and ran these motors and others saw the difference of course they were going to become very popular indeed. Remember most people look for every advantage they can get and I would not blame them. I will (I hope ) be doing the same thing this year only because to compete on an even level with others I will have to. I race for the fun but it is no fun at all if you know before the race starts you cant possibly win/place/be competative unless the BL guys (of approx = ability) all crash out.
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Old 01-03-2008, 08:25 AM   #182
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I will put in my two cents.

I don't like the handout motors. Reason #1 is consistancy. I feel bad motors (rubbing in the can) are a worse problem then poor tuneing ability. If the hoods are alinged and good brushes are used most stock motors run pretty good but getting a bad batch of motors with arms rubbing or laminations coming apart is less fair then getting ROAR legal motors from your favorite motor tuner to race in this class. Why stop at the motor and tires. Make everyone run the same chassis! (J/K!!!!!) My point is racing is fun when differences exist. There MUST BE RULES though. ROAR already approves cars, motors, batteries, tires etc. If you feel someone has a cheater motor there is already a process for that. Pony up the money and challenge the motor. Tear it down. Handouts keep the motor companies from show casing there stuff on this large stage. A lot of smaller companies sell a lot more spec motors then mod motors so this is a more important market for them and they are denied the bragging rights with handout motors at many major races. If you must limit to one kind of motor then fine. But there are many motors approved by ROAR to meet "spec" class rules. Why not be allowed to run them at a national's event?

Spec tires I am kind of indifferent on this as variation in tires is very minimal and this keeps people from finding an advantage with a tire that may not be available at the race.

On the BL topic. Just because everyone determined 13.5 brushless is the new stock the sanctioning bodies have not come to that same conclusion yet. That is like saying everyone found running truck tires on there buggy works great. The car does not conform to the rules but since everyone is doing it it should become legal. (oh wait that is were truggies come from!) I do agree the sanctioning bodies need to be more proactive then reactive. BL and Lipo are here to stay but there is an issue still of where they belong. I agree in electric (especially offroad) there are too many classes and adding BL classes to the mix spreads everyone thin. BL in the spec classes is too big an advantage. They belong in mod for now IMO. Run them in your club races if allowed but for sanctioned racing people should follow the rule book and not make up there own set of rules. I think this is true for all forms of racing. Check out a local full size race track. There are defined rules for all classes they race. You are not allowed to make up your own rules since you car/motor does not conform.
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Old 01-03-2008, 09:52 AM   #183
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i'm not saying that bl13.5 is equal to 27t brushed, it's not by a long shot. i'm saying that if the whole field is brushless, it's a more level field.

batteries for example, roar is adpoting lipo technology because it's technology that the racers want. it's not equal really equal to nimh, but yet they will be allowed to run together. is that because with a stock motor or a 19t they're at a slight disadvantage?

the technology is changing, time to change with it. there wasn't this much controversy when rebuildable stock motors were legalized, and those were leaps and bounds faster than non-rebuildable stockers.
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Old 01-03-2008, 09:58 AM   #184
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Actually I would disagree that rebuildable's are faster. They were just WAY easier to maintain so they stayed faster longer. Unless you had a stock lathe you could not maintain a non rebuildable stock motor properly and it was a sever pain in the butt even if you had a lathe. The specs of the workings in the motor are the same. You just get to remove the top now and do not need to realign the hood after you cut the motor! BL are bearing with no drag and other things but you already agreed with that. I would say lipo are fine as long as you maintain wieght. I am not sure Lipo put out that much more power then nimh but the car is so much lighter it might feel that way.
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Old 01-03-2008, 10:10 AM   #185
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My personal feeling on this is simple, people should be based on thier ability not on their age.

If you are fast then you run with the fast people. If you are slow you run with the slow people. I think Masters classes should not be allowed.

The great thing about this hobby is that there is no age, gender, race advantages/disadvantages.
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Old 01-03-2008, 10:41 AM   #186
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Quote:
there wasn't this much controversy when rebuildable stock motors were legalized, and those were leaps and bounds faster than non-rebuildable stockers.
Being one of the first advocates pushing for the rebuildable STOCK motors, and actually one who presented this idea several times to NORRCA (which is where they got started), I can tell you - it was ALMOST as much of a fight. The biggest difference was "IT DIDN'T COME UNDER SUCH FIRE ON THE INTERNET"

We worked on the details, specs were written, ideas were layed out, Mfg's were contacted...and the plan was layed out.

To the best of my memory, once this was all finalized, one of the then NORRCA directors contacted ROAR about them going the same direction.

The FIRST response from that ROAR Official was "There is NO WAY we wil legalize a 'ReBUILDABLE' type Stock 27t Motor." The next comment was, "We'll STUDY it for a YEAR, and look into it for the NEXT season" ..and within a couple weeks, we were told "ROAR was going to support the REBUILDABLE STOCK MOTOR" Getting ROAR on board with it took less then 2 months...

Having forums like these really changes the way things are done, and the speed of which people know about them.

While testing the 17.5 and 21.5 motors last year, we tried to keep pretty quiet about what we were testing...but there was SO MUCH "Dis-Information" that started leaking out...it was hard to get some of the testing in (the way I wanted it tested anyway) because the cat was out of the bag on what was being run. The good thing was - this also created a BUZZ about the new motor - the bad thing was that buzz made guys want us to Start the class w/ these motors MID SEASON '07 instead of the planned Start up in '08.

I can tell you - for MANY people who have already had the opportunity to run the 17.5 motors in several different venues... They DO find it fits the needs many racers share. This motor won't be for everyone - NOR Should it be. Some guys like more SPEED, more THROTTLE Response, more EXCITEMENT..and those are the guys who should be running a "limited mod" or "modified" class most likely.
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Old 01-03-2008, 11:07 AM   #187
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As one of the "Old Guys" that has no chance of keeping up with the young guys I like the Masters Class. Typically those heats have a little less pressure and a little more fun..after all it's just a bunch of old guys playing with their toys. It is nice to run in the "A" main once in a while, it just feels good.

I also don't know what it hurts, a couple of heats of Masters is simply a couple more heats, whether they are a separate class or not doesn't really matter. And maybe, just maybe, those old guys may not show up if they don't have a Masters class. Maybe the age should be a little older to make it a true masters class, something like 45 or 50.

The first Baby Boomers start retiring this month, why not give us a place to spend our retirement money! The hobby could use the money and interest anyway, we can't afford to lose one single person these days.
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Old 01-03-2008, 11:41 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWTour View Post
...The biggest difference was "IT DIDN'T COME UNDER SUCH FIRE ON THE INTERNET"...


that applies to just about everything.
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Old 01-03-2008, 11:44 AM   #189
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I like the Masters class in a lot of events except for the Roar NATS.
I feel the same way with having Stock in the Nationals.
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Old 01-03-2008, 11:54 AM   #190
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussB View Post
in all my 15+ years of competetive racing, i've never seen anything more "equal" than a pack of BL motors from the same company in the same wind. it's far more "equal" than handout motors will ever be. if can and rotor are controlled, there are no tricks to them. you cannot play with brushes and springs, you cannot ream out bushings, you cannot (currently) zap rotors, and playing with the timing only shifts the power band around a bit.

a box of handout motors, in their delivered condition are not at all equal. requiring all stock entrants to show up with a box stock novak 13.5 pro is far more equal than brushed handouts will ever be. and cheaper too... $80 for one motor that will be fast and equal to the others vs. $60 for 2 motors that may be fast, $20 for brushes and springs and the price gap is already gone. factor in time spent and ancillary equipment and brushless is cheaper, hands down. and that's just for one race. after the race, how many people still use the handouts? i see them in the classifieds and on ebay all the time after a big race. a brushless motor still has another season or two left on it.
..You were competetive..
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Old 01-03-2008, 02:38 PM   #191
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Quote:
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..You were competetive..
j/k Russ
there's a difference between "competetive" and "fast".
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Old 01-03-2008, 04:17 PM   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussB View Post
there's a difference between "competitive" and "fast".
Cool..then I am "Competitive"..
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Old 01-03-2008, 06:18 PM   #193
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Woah...way to bring this thread back, it's old enough I barely remember starting it.. Now the conversation has gotten all relevant..



Quote:
Originally Posted by Crashtest1
The message behind this thread is... no matter how good you can become by gaining experience. The real difference between you and the person next to you is your age. If you ran organizations you woulda shuffled Jared Tibo and anyone else with pure talent all over the place huh? Those guys were just too good and dominated too much. People should concentrate on going faster and a little less on being a hypocrit whiny bigot.
Actually if you'd been paying attention to the date of the thread you would have seen it was hella old .. and had you been paying attention back then you would have also realized it was posted during a flood of "should ROAR do this.." threads, all in jest...but it appears I have a online stalker for you to have dug this pile up..congrats on being creepy.. Pretty much everyone got the joke, except for you..
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Old 01-04-2008, 08:32 AM   #194
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Casper View Post
I will put in my two cents.

I don't like the handout motors. Reason #1 is consistancy. I feel bad motors (rubbing in the can) are a worse problem then poor tuneing ability. If the hoods are alinged and good brushes are used most stock motors run pretty good but getting a bad batch of motors with arms rubbing or laminations coming apart is less fair then getting ROAR legal motors from your favorite motor tuner to race in this class. Why stop at the motor and tires. Make everyone run the same chassis! (J/K!!!!!) My point is racing is fun when differences exist. There MUST BE RULES though. ROAR already approves cars, motors, batteries, tires etc. If you feel someone has a cheater motor there is already a process for that. Pony up the money and challenge the motor. Tear it down. Handouts keep the motor companies from show casing there stuff on this large stage. A lot of smaller companies sell a lot more spec motors then mod motors so this is a more important market for them and they are denied the bragging rights with handout motors at many major races. If you must limit to one kind of motor then fine. But there are many motors approved by ROAR to meet "spec" class rules. Why not be allowed to run them at a national's event?

Spec tires I am kind of indifferent on this as variation in tires is very minimal and this keeps people from finding an advantage with a tire that may not be available at the race.

On the BL topic. Just because everyone determined 13.5 brushless is the new stock the sanctioning bodies have not come to that same conclusion yet. That is like saying everyone found running truck tires on there buggy works great. The car does not conform to the rules but since everyone is doing it it should become legal. (oh wait that is were truggies come from!) I do agree the sanctioning bodies need to be more proactive then reactive. BL and Lipo are here to stay but there is an issue still of where they belong. I agree in electric (especially offroad) there are too many classes and adding BL classes to the mix spreads everyone thin. BL in the spec classes is too big an advantage. They belong in mod for now IMO. Run them in your club races if allowed but for sanctioned racing people should follow the rule book and not make up there own set of rules. I think this is true for all forms of racing. Check out a local full size race track. There are defined rules for all classes they race. You are not allowed to make up your own rules since you car/motor does not conform.
You have my vote Casper.

I would just like to add that tuning the motors is part of the hobby just like chassis tuning and driving skill. If people want to take out the motor tuning and maintainence portion because they are not good at it, it would only be fair that I get to computerize my car and radio to drive itself around the track cause I suck at driving. To be harsh, if you can't play by the rules or don't want to, maybe you should find another hobby like golf. I know nobody cheats on the golf course and everybody follows the rules.
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Old 01-04-2008, 08:44 AM   #195
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The very reason`s you enjoy tuning is why I will not race spec class`s anymore...


No way I could out tune a Motor tuner`s hand picked motor`s....


and


no way I could race with a Motor tuner`s special , just didnt feel it was the honorable thing to do....
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