R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 01-02-2008, 05:48 PM   #166
Tech Champion
 
skypilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,524
Trader Rating: 14 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart View Post
I always wonder how things would be different with BL if they were slightly slower than their brushed equivalent rather than slightly faster. How many people would opt for less maintenance and cost at the expense of speed.

Novak was smart.

instead of buying a 13.5 i would have bought a 10.5 and been slightly faster then stock, and slightly slower then 19t, no biggie.
skypilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2008, 05:49 PM   #167
Tech Addict
 
RussB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 736
Send a message via MSN to RussB
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry View Post
Don`t agree because using handout`s keeps it fair .....
i would have to disagree with that statement... handout motors only serve to widen the gap between private racers and racers with a motor builder/sponsor.

with handouts, a private racer has to:
  • hope the motors they have the budget to buy are "good"
  • pony up for brushes
  • spend time that could be used on track practicing or on chassis prep tweaking every last bit of performance out of said motor
  • run absurd gearing to try to keep up with the guys that got better base motors

whereas a racer with a motor builder/sponsor gets:
  • the maximum number of motors available to them
  • a freshly tuned motor each round
  • doesn't have to spend time on motors
  • all the experience that their builder has

with a stated product rule, the average joe racer can go to the shop of their choice, and for a few $$ more than a handout, purchase a motor that is known to be good and fully built by the tuner of their choice.
RussB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2008, 05:51 PM   #168
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chandler, Arizona
Posts: 3,273
Send a message via AIM to Dawn Sanchez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussB View Post
i would have to disagree with that statement... handout motors only serve to widen the gap between private racers and racers with a motor builder/sponsor.

with handouts, a private racer has to:
  • hope the motors they have the budget to buy are "good"
  • pony up for brushes
  • spend time that could be used on track practicing or on chassis prep tweaking every last bit of performance out of said motor
  • run absurd gearing to try to keep up with the guys that got better base motors

whereas a racer with a motor builder/sponsor gets:
  • the maximum number of motors available to them
  • a freshly tuned motor each round
  • doesn't have to spend time on motors
  • all the experience that their builder has

with a stated product rule, the average joe racer can go to the shop of their choice, and for a few $$ more than a handout, purchase a motor that is known to be good and fully built by the tuner of their choice.
EXACTLY!!!!!! I knew I wasn't the only one thinking this way... .
Dawn Sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2008, 05:52 PM   #169
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chandler, Arizona
Posts: 3,273
Send a message via AIM to Dawn Sanchez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot View Post
dang thats a very very "old" reference. I'm guessing just us old guys will get it
what is scary is... I got it as soon as I read Tim posted that.. and wondered how Tim knew about that...

LOL

http://www.transparencynow.com/Logan/logpics2.htm
Attached Thumbnails
Should old people with Skills be Forced out of Racing ROAR Masters.-carousel.jpg  

Last edited by Dawn Sanchez; 01-02-2008 at 05:59 PM. Reason: for those younger than 40.... carousel explained.. :)
Dawn Sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2008, 05:57 PM   #170
Tech Addict
 
RussB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 736
Send a message via MSN to RussB
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn Sanchez View Post
EXACTLY!!!!!! I knew I wasn't the only one thinking this way... .
yeah, but i think that bl13.5 should be the new stock and 27t brushed should be allowed to run with us. same with 10.5 and 19t.

the creation of new classes and grandfathering the old in with them wouldn't be soooo bad, would it? it's already what's happening at the club level. for the nationals level events, that's up to you guys to figure out
RussB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2008, 06:03 PM   #171
Tech Elite
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Chandler, Arizona
Posts: 3,273
Send a message via AIM to Dawn Sanchez
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussB View Post
yeah, but i think that bl13.5 should be the new stock and 27t brushed should be allowed to run with us. same with 10.5 and 19t.

the creation of new classes and grandfathering the old in with them wouldn't be soooo bad, would it? it's already what's happening at the club level. for the nationals level events, that's up to you guys to figure out
nationals need to be held to a bit higher standard in competitive fairness than club racing... not to say that club racing isn't fair.. but, well, I hope you understand my point and not be offended....

I don't believe allowing a question of fairness should be involved at a national.

If somebody could tell me a 17.5 or 13.5 is EQUAL in every way in on road, off road and oval electric racing to a 27T stock motor... fine.... I would swing that direction for a national event. But, nobody has stated that to me that I would trust actually knows.
Dawn Sanchez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2008, 06:06 PM   #172
Ike
Tech Master
 
Ike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Posts: 1,131
Trader Rating: 4 (100%+)
Default

I think this is far too important of a discussion to be burried in a joke thread about the masters class. Dawn, you should make another thread so this topic gets the exposure it deserves and people don't just stumble across it on accident.

Edit: Nevermind, someone already did
Ike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2008, 06:19 PM   #173
Tech Adept
 
BigTrucks's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 117
Default

This is a fun read, it goes form Eli handing the smack down in masters to how and what classes will or will not be supported. There are too many classes and not enough people.
The stock brushless class should be by itself, keep stock, all other brushless run with mod in the mod class. The 19 turn class is there to get the fast guys out of stock ( that is working ). At the larger races 19 turn has turned into a factory class anyway, and most of the fast guys in 19 run Mod also. Pull 19 off the list at larger races
I am sure there are alot of fast guys in stock and some of them have rides, If I go to a large race who cares if I have to race Jeff Cuffs, Dan Hartman, Mike Herald Jr, or Eli I made that choice to be there and run that class. There ability got them to where they are at.
Go to a National or a Regional you have your local guys there and guys that make it a road trip. What you also get there is the best of the best, I expect no different.
The truth is unless your tested skill wise you will only get as fast as the people you run with.
__________________
Team Driver For

Team Epic , Team Catch Me
BigTrucks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2008, 06:27 PM   #174
Tech Elite
 
SWTour's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Central Coast...CALIF.
Posts: 2,873
Trader Rating: 9 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn Sanchez
If somebody could tell me a 17.5 or 13.5 is EQUAL in every way in on road, off road and oval electric racing to a 27T stock motor... fine.... I would swing that direction for a national event. But, nobody has stated that to me that I would trust actually knows.
I don't know how much the 17.5 has been tried or tested on the Off-Road and the On-Road so far, being it was fairly recently released. We've done a LOT of testing with it in both 4 cell and LIPO for oval, and I've also done a moderate amount of testing it for On-Road but not NeARLY enough to draw any On-Road conclusions myself.

The biggest downside we've seen in trying to use the lower wind B/L motors for on-road racing is the gearing ability. These things turn very low RPM compared to a 27t Brushed motor and require a lot higher ratio...and some touring cars seem to have a bit of an issue getting the rollout that high.
__________________
Joe Myers
R/C Racing since 1985 ~ Santa Maria, CA (Central Coast)
2001-2012 - South-West Tour R/C Oval Series...will the SWT be revived?
Things are headed towards a return of the SWT Series, but for
2017 the focus will be on the Encino Velodrome (and dirt oval racing)
SWTour is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2008, 06:56 PM   #175
Tech Champion
 
C_O_jones's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Wa.
Posts: 9,055
Trader Rating: 11 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussB View Post
i would have to disagree with that statement... handout motors only serve to widen the gap between private racers and racers with a motor builder/sponsor.

with handouts, a private racer has to:
  • hope the motors they have the budget to buy are "good"
  • pony up for brushes
  • spend time that could be used on track practicing or on chassis prep tweaking every last bit of performance out of said motor
  • run absurd gearing to try to keep up with the guys that got better base motors

whereas a racer with a motor builder/sponsor gets:
  • the maximum number of motors available to them
  • a freshly tuned motor each round
  • doesn't have to spend time on motors
  • all the experience that their builder has

with a stated product rule, the average joe racer can go to the shop of their choice, and for a few $$ more than a handout, purchase a motor that is known to be good and fully built by the tuner of their choice.
You are wrong, at least for the ROAR nat's.
You get one handout motor with your paid entry and are then allowed to purchase 1 additional motor,$30 if I remember right that goes for both stock and 19t.
So you go to the Nats, big bucks for travel and hotel and food, and now you are going to whine about and extra $30 for a second motor and $20 for brushes and springs?
Everybody gets motors from the same one or two boxes, are numbered and teched, where do the sponsored pros get an unlimited advantage?
You are attending the "nats", you should be able to build a competitive motor by that time, and if not any of the pro motor builders are willing to help, maybe for a small fee or most often for free.
The pro motor builders use there own stickers, they do all sell these same motors and all the sponsored drivers have there sponsored motors for advertising purposes.
Handout BL motors wont be able to do that.

The handout is the best "equalizer"
__________________
Bacon is Meat Candy
C_O_jones is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2008, 07:08 PM   #176
Tech Champion
 
John Tag's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Huntersville, NC
Posts: 8,925
Trader Rating: 42 (100%+)
Default

The problem I see with seperate classes for masters or Jrs..Is.. There not running TOGETHER..So there not actually racing eachother if there in 4 diffrent mains ect..I see that actually turning some away not adding to enrty counts. Also IF you were to combined the Jr and Masters with normal classes and still award the higher finishing entrant,What is the diffrence..You just made say 8 stock mains 2 more and still bought the same amount of awards..So just keep them as is and allow for say a 7th and 8th class.NOT Take away .
__________________
www.express-motorsports.net for all your motor needs
Multi time National Champions,Reedy Champs,Vegas Champs,Birds, Champs,[email protected]

Team Associated-Express Motorsports-Trinity-Reflex Racing-A Main Hobbies-ProtekRC
John Tag is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2008, 07:50 PM   #177
Tech Apprentice
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 89
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussB View Post
i would have to disagree with that statement... handout motors only serve to widen the gap between private racers and racers with a motor builder/sponsor.

with handouts, a private racer has to:
  • hope the motors they have the budget to buy are "good"
  • pony up for brushes
  • spend time that could be used on track practicing or on chassis prep tweaking every last bit of performance out of said motor
  • run absurd gearing to try to keep up with the guys that got better base motors

whereas a racer with a motor builder/sponsor gets:
  • the maximum number of motors available to them
  • a freshly tuned motor each round
  • doesn't have to spend time on motors
  • all the experience that their builder has

with a stated product rule, the average joe racer can go to the shop of their choice, and for a few $$ more than a handout, purchase a motor that is known to be good and fully built by the tuner of their choice.
i dont agree with that at all.
i wish in big events,its a hand out motors,batteries and tires and i asure you u wont see the same 10 racers in 1 class year after year.
average joe is the joe who are not sponsored by a motor tuner,neither a battery matcher company.
if all batteries and motors out there are generically equall(stck class at least) then we have no proplem,buts its near to impossible for joe to go and buy off the shelf top$ motor from a motor tuner that will perform the same as the sponsored driver motor from that same motor tuner.its not gonna happen.
same with batteries,no matter how much u paid for a matched pack,u will not get that same pack as the company sponsored driver.
i know for fact that a big motor tuner (trinity)will dyno all their stock motors and keeps the special ones for their team drivers.
when joe gets a hand out motor,he knows its the same like any one else,and its up to him to zapp the magnetts,aligen the hood.put a good set of brushes,thre is a plenty of time in big events to do those things.
just my thoughts.
trackpower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2008, 07:57 PM   #178
Tech Apprentice
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 89
Default

wow i was busy typing that response when c-o-jones posted his.i think we talking the same here.
trackpower is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2008, 10:14 PM   #179
Tech Addict
 
RussB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 736
Send a message via MSN to RussB
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by C_O_jones View Post
You are wrong, at least for the ROAR nat's.
You get one handout motor with your paid entry and are then allowed to purchase 1 additional motor,$30 if I remember right that goes for both stock and 19t.
So you go to the Nats, big bucks for travel and hotel and food, and now you are going to whine about and extra $30 for a second motor and $20 for brushes and springs?
Everybody gets motors from the same one or two boxes, are numbered and teched, where do the sponsored pros get an unlimited advantage?
You are attending the "nats", you should be able to build a competitive motor by that time, and if not any of the pro motor builders are willing to help, maybe for a small fee or most often for free.
The pro motor builders use there own stickers, they do all sell these same motors and all the sponsored drivers have there sponsored motors for advertising purposes.
Handout BL motors wont be able to do that.

The handout is the best "equalizer"
in all my 15+ years of competetive racing, i've never seen anything more "equal" than a pack of BL motors from the same company in the same wind. it's far more "equal" than handout motors will ever be. if can and rotor are controlled, there are no tricks to them. you cannot play with brushes and springs, you cannot ream out bushings, you cannot (currently) zap rotors, and playing with the timing only shifts the power band around a bit.

a box of handout motors, in their delivered condition are not at all equal. requiring all stock entrants to show up with a box stock novak 13.5 pro is far more equal than brushed handouts will ever be. and cheaper too... $80 for one motor that will be fast and equal to the others vs. $60 for 2 motors that may be fast, $20 for brushes and springs and the price gap is already gone. factor in time spent and ancillary equipment and brushless is cheaper, hands down. and that's just for one race. after the race, how many people still use the handouts? i see them in the classifieds and on ebay all the time after a big race. a brushless motor still has another season or two left on it.
RussB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-03-2008, 02:16 AM   #180
Tech Elite
 
Anthony.L's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Federal Way, WA
Posts: 2,701
Trader Rating: 36 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawn Sanchez View Post
If somebody could tell me a 17.5 or 13.5 is EQUAL in every way in on road, off road and oval electric racing to a 27T stock motor... fine.... I would swing that direction for a national event. But, nobody has stated that to me that I would trust actually knows.
Dawn please consider one other very important detail. Most club racers and tracks have already began to accept 13.5 as 27t replacement, and 10.5 as 19t replacement. Because of this there are many people out there that have already invested in these motors, as well as knowledge and experience running them.

If ROAR for some reason decides to go 17.5 route for 27t as an example, you are going to turn off a lot of people who already own and run 13.5 motors.

Another point a long those same lines, 13.5 and 10.5 are some of the most widely sold and available brushless motors. Every brushless company offers them now and more importantly most companies are adopting design changes to make tech easy for spec classes/races. Novak has color rings on the 13.5 and 10.5. Trinity and Speed Passion are coming out with motors that are entirely red and blue to quickly tell which motor.

Because the technology has been adopted by the racers WAY before ROAR has seriously considered it I highly encourage you to consider these points in your meeting.
Anthony.L is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Official Paved On Road Roar Nats Masters Classs John Tag Electric On-Road 34 01-26-2008 08:37 AM
ROAR Masters age change? HarshGuy Electric On-Road 31 06-20-2006 10:21 PM
HOBBY PEOPLE RACING. R.I.P.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CHRIS CHAVEZ Racing Forum 4 03-24-2006 08:53 PM
Racing skills question. RCknight Electric On-Road 46 07-19-2005 01:09 AM
Premier Limited Edition masters of r/c racing 155 card collection Ko Racer R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 7 06-29-2003 04:58 AM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 06:23 PM.


Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net