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Old 06-17-2007, 12:45 PM   #1
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Default ROAR STOCK motors.... rule changes regarding BRUSHLESS

Ok so it looks like BL is the way of the future love it or hate it BL is here. So my club wich i feel is fairly typical is using ROAR as its basis for its club race rulebook.... For the last 17+years of my club racing the biggest class has always been ROAR STOCK. First with pan cars now with touring cars. We have 19T and mod but stock is the one that fills the pits.

We are at a cross roads now with people wanting a to run stock BL in our stock class. And from lots of reading and feedback from this forum, 99% just allow them to run the 13.5BL systems... Thats fine and dandy only novak makes them at this point. the SS and the EX. But as others LRP,GM,CASTLE ect ect get on board with making a 13.5BL we risk blurring the line of what is still considered "stock compatible"

When will we see a ROAR rule book change in regards to the stock class motors??? Fast forward 5 years im sure BL will be the norm and brushed found in RTR cars or even gone. So how do we move forward here?

Mod is taken care of, BL is legal to run in mod. An easy rule to make as mod is about unlimited power, but stock is about limiting power to make it both affordable and slow enough for new racers and even seasoned racers that quite enjoy the lower speeds associated with stock. Not to mention the life of tires and cars is much longer running stock...

So maybe some motor makers and ROAR descision makers could chime in here to perhaps sugest when we may see some sort of stock rules in regards to "STOCK" motor racing.

PS this is not a thread to bash BL VS B. ITs a thread for looking at the future of stock motor racing. As it is now there are no rules or standards. 13.5 is supposed to be equivilent to 27t brush but even with in novaks products the EX vs the SS are totally different in power and speed output..
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Old 06-17-2007, 01:08 PM   #2
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If Brushless is allowed in stock, will Lipo batteries be allowed aswell?
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Old 06-17-2007, 01:26 PM   #3
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[QUOTE=Sabin;3406229]If Brushless is allowed in stock, will Lipo batteries be allowed aswell?[/QUOTE

They are both eventually going to be allowed. When? Your guess is as good as mine. When the majority of the racers want BL and lipo it will happen. I just hope it is sooner than later.
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Old 06-17-2007, 01:35 PM   #4
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I think it is going to be a while more yet until we see BL motors in stock under ROAR. Because the power curve is considerably different from a brushed motor a stock equivalent motor may not be equivalent in all classes. For example a stock equivalent BL in a TC may run equal to a stock brushed motor, but put that same motor in a 1/12th pan car and it will probably be faster then a stock brushed in that class.
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Old 06-17-2007, 01:37 PM   #5
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I love running my brushless 13.5 SS, but at our track we run both together. But the brushless cars are about .3 second faster and resulting in higher lap counts. I'd love to see the companies work with Roar at setting a power standard for brushless to even everything out.
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Old 06-17-2007, 02:09 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabin View Post
If Brushless is allowed in stock, will Lipo batteries be allowed aswell?
Different subject please see:

ROAR LEGAL BATTERIES.... rule changes regarding LIPO

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Old 06-17-2007, 03:56 PM   #7
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i'd bet dollars to donuts that if novak had it to do over again, knowing that roar would have an about face on the bonded/sintered rotor rule, we'd have gotten a 15.5 turn motor (or so)... remember the 13.5 was designed around the bonded rotor which had less power.. and frankly i still wish they would produce something more "spec" speed like 17-20 turn range with power more like a silver can...
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Old 06-17-2007, 05:48 PM   #8
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We allow the Novak Brushless to run in our stock class. One thing you can do to try and make it fair is limit the gearing on the brushless motors. We don't have that rule at our track. But you can do some test runs and get a gear that will set similar lap times compared to brushed. Like say our track... gearing a 13.5pro to 5.15 final on my car will result in a brushed CO27 having a slight edge on the back straight. Just an example...

Anyways, all Roar would have to do is set a "stock" brushless motor limit to 13.5. And then let the Brushless companies compete in that sense. Some will be fast. Some will be slow. But that's the name of the game. Just like comparing a P2k to a Greenmachine to a MVP to a Monster stock to a CO27. They are all not the same speed. Not the same power band. Some are better than others. But they are all 24 27t stock motors. So Roar should just set this and see what happens. Maybe also have a few other rules or specs like rotor and magnet specs. It all has to start somewhere. Just my 2
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Old 06-17-2007, 06:58 PM   #9
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i'd bet dollars to donuts that if novak had it to do over again, knowing that roar would have an about face on the bonded/sintered rotor rule, we'd have gotten a 15.5 turn motor (or so)... remember the 13.5 was designed around the bonded rotor which had less power.. and frankly i still wish they would produce something more "spec" speed like 17-20 turn range with power more like a silver can...
I agree about the 13.5. It's probably too late now, too, as it seems like 13.5 is going to be the new stock eventually. This would have been a good time to make that class slower instead of faster. I'm guessing if/when ROAR does ratify rules, they're not going to say 14.5 or 15.5 is the new stock, especially with a grillion 13.5's already in use.

There's only one or two guys left locally running brushed stock, and they're both very good at tuning motors, and fast. I find the 13.5 is about the same on the straights, but jumps out of the turns a bit quicker. This is often an advantage, though how much it matters depends heavily on the layout. With a more open layout, however, we could probably gear them up and get a little more on the straights. Everybody switching to 13.5 has brought a LOT, and I mean a LOT more parity to the stock class. It's more fun and competitive now than it ever was before. All the BL cars are nearly identical in speed, and everybody has as much power as the fastest brushed guys from before that could outmotor us every time when we all ran brushed.
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Old 06-17-2007, 07:20 PM   #10
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good posts guys.

As for limiting gearing i don think thats needed. Im looking forward here past integration with brushed motors. One would assume that if the current brushed stock motor rules are working that converting them to BL would be the smartest move. Ensuring a easier trasition period from brusehd to brushless.

I just wish we had a ROAR parameter guide for stock BL motors. And a method of teching them. Again today would be nice, but in the future if a "stock" class is to thrive we need rules. And a set of parameters for manufacteres to build within
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Old 06-17-2007, 07:25 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by Joel Lagace View Post
I just wish we had a ROAR parameter guide for stock BL motors. And a method of teching them. Again today would be nice, but in the future if a "stock" class is to thrive we need rules. And a set of parameters for manufacteres to build within
Novak has a nice guide available for using a motor's inductance for tech purposes. There's definitely been a lot of progress in this direction, and I've heard a few people say ROAR is working on making rules for a class. While I don't care about ROAR rules, per se, if they come up with some guidelines, manufacturers will probably follow them, the benefits of which will trickle down to racers regardless of whether or not they're a part of ROAR. So, hopefully ROAR does something soon.
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Old 06-17-2007, 07:42 PM   #12
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Well...if your club follows the ROAR rule book they they already know the answer....


They can run 13.5 (and 10.5, and LiPio, and anything else) right now.

From the ROAR Rule Book:

Quote:
5.1.2 For Level 3-5 sanctioned events, any deviation from ROAR rules must have been applied for in writing and approved by the ROAR Executive Committee (by signature of the Competition Director for Level 5 events or Sanctioning Director for Levels 3-4) in advance of the event, and must be prominent on entry forms and all advertisements. Deviations at Level 1 and 2 events must be prominent on all entry forms and advertisements but do not need written ROAR Executive Committee approval.
Club Races are considered Level 1 events. The last part in bold means the race director (whoever puts on the race) can make any necessary changes to the rules in order to suit the needs of the local racers.

You can print this out and show it to your track director

At my track this is all very democratic. If a majority of the locals want to run mixed 13.5 and stock then that what we run. If you can get 5 guys to agree to run the same thing (Mini Cooper, F103GT, Tyco Turbo Hoppers...anything as long as you have 5 racers) then you have a separate class.

FYI, in FL most local tracks are starting to allow Mixed Stock and 13.5, Mixed 10.5 and 19T, Mixed 6 Cell and LiPo (in all classes) and 5 cell if anyone wants to run it (All the fast Mod guys run 5 cell).
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Old 06-17-2007, 07:48 PM   #13
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At my local track during a practice session me and a friend were running co27's in a t1 and t2007. Another guy had a pan car with a 13.5 stock brushless motor in it and down the straight the xrays were actually slightly pulling away from the pan car. So there seems to be no advantage in speed for the ones running 13.5's.
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Old 06-17-2007, 07:55 PM   #14
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We historically used ROAR as a basic of our rules, we are not a roar club. Our club is democratic too, and as it stands we are allowing lipo this comming fall and in all probability BL stock will follow shortly if not this year probably next year.

ITs fine to vote and say yes allow 13.5BL in stock right now as they are at a certain level, but without guidelines. Right now we know that any stock motor that shows up to our club must have the roar stamp on it. We dont let a guy test his BRAND XYZ non roar stock motor with ball bearings and possibly 27turn locked 24degree timing to see if its ok to run with us. Why? Because roar has set the standards and we have a certain degree of comfort knowing that any roar stamped motor coming to the track is based on guidelines that will not make all other motors obsolete the moment a new motor is built. With the roar stamp the dirty work has already be done.

Our club will do what all other clubs will do and deal with the issue in there own way. But since brushed stock motors have been the only motor to use for the last 20-50years in rc its more then just a magnet evolution here, its a 100% complete from the ground up rebuild of what we know to be a stock motor. Nothing about a 13.5BL motor falls within the current roar stock motor rules. We are not talking about new endbells,round brushes new magnets............. its a major change. Without rules stock is no longer stock. its mod.
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Old 06-17-2007, 07:59 PM   #15
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your friends pancar must have been draging a cinder block.. a 6 cell pancar with a 13.5 should smoke a 27t tourer on the straights.. and probably everywhere else for that matter if there is any traction..
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