ROAR STOCK motors.... rule changes regarding BRUSHLESS
06-18-2007, 01:51 PM
#32
Novak tested a 12.5 and 14.5 last year to see what was closer to stock.The 14.5 in road course was way slower and the 12.5 was faster. That's why he came up with the 13.5.To run at a local club ROAR has always allowed the local clubs to change things.You can't change the rules for higher level races.
If you local club want to run Brushless and brushed together it's their decision.If you want to run Lipos run them.If you don't know the ROAR rules on what a club can do first read the book and then contact your region director and ask them.If they don't know the answer they find the answer for you.I know I did when I held the position. The State series here in Florida has always taken the lead for ROAR .We are running the Brushless in Masters class and now everyone wants brushless in stock and 19t the 10.5 for the upcoming racing season.
If you have not figured it out yet the Brushless motors and Lipos is here to stay and the brushed motors will be going bye- bye real soon.As for the batteries ever since I've been racing they have always gotten better.Some better than others. Try squeezing 8 minutes in 1/12th stock or mod with 1200's.That was before ESC- we had wiper arms.Now we have 4600's the same size.Change is here to a new form of battery.I Remember the first metal hydes being tested- they blew up while running at Lake Whippoorwill.
They same thing about motors when the old 540 motors were replaced by the Lemans style and then the total rebuildable motors and now Brushless.
If you local club want to run Brushless and brushed together it's their decision.If you want to run Lipos run them.If you don't know the ROAR rules on what a club can do first read the book and then contact your region director and ask them.If they don't know the answer they find the answer for you.I know I did when I held the position. The State series here in Florida has always taken the lead for ROAR .We are running the Brushless in Masters class and now everyone wants brushless in stock and 19t the 10.5 for the upcoming racing season.
If you have not figured it out yet the Brushless motors and Lipos is here to stay and the brushed motors will be going bye- bye real soon.As for the batteries ever since I've been racing they have always gotten better.Some better than others. Try squeezing 8 minutes in 1/12th stock or mod with 1200's.That was before ESC- we had wiper arms.Now we have 4600's the same size.Change is here to a new form of battery.I Remember the first metal hydes being tested- they blew up while running at Lake Whippoorwill.
They same thing about motors when the old 540 motors were replaced by the Lemans style and then the total rebuildable motors and now Brushless.
I think your missing my point. Or i have not been clear..
Currenlty stock motor in 99.9% of clubs is a ROAR tagged stock motor. ITs always been that way, national or my back yard it dont matter. We run stock and its a given that anyone racing brushed stock will only be allowed to use a ROAR stamped stock motor.
Im not debating weather or not we should use them. The time is now like you said, brushless is here to stay. weather or not a club is ROAR or not club or national event. The consistant thing is stock means a motor that complies to ROAR rules like it or not thats how its always been for me.
So all im looking for is the next step in stock... brushless stock. A standard a rule a parameter somethign that will control the class and define it as stock. I know clubs can do what they want. The risk we have now is what BL to alloow for stock? Since there are no standards we allow brand X and then brand Y and Z out do the brand x next thing you know there not quite 13.5 anymore... Im just looking for control and rules.
Debating the speed of stock or who should race in stock is not the issue.
We are not talking about a brand new brushed motor with a new non legal magnet awaiting roar aproval were talking about new technology that does not fit anywhere even close to what current stock motors rules specify, from bearings to retail price tag nothing complies at this point. The rules need amendment.
Just trying to keep on topic here guys
06-18-2007, 02:02 PM
#33
Novak will soon be offering a 17.5T motor for spec racing----SW Tour (ARCOR) has been testing. The motor can be built as an EX (bonded rotor) or an SS Pro (sintered rotor). We can upload the motors to Shopatron anytime if clubs or tracks are interested in trying them out.
only change i'd make is only offer it in sintered just so it doesn't have to be worried about in tech.. if you have to go up a wind..
06-18-2007, 02:04 PM
#34
....So all im looking for is the next step in stock... brushless stock. A standard a rule a parameter somethign that will control the class and define it as stock. I know clubs can do what they want. The risk we have now is what BL to alloow for stock? Since there are no standards we allow brand X and then brand Y and Z out do the brand x next thing you know there not quite 13.5 anymore... Im just looking for control and rules.....
06-18-2007, 02:42 PM
#36
We will be releasing a new 18.5T Crawler motor (as part of the new Rooster Crawler system) and it will be our "slowest" motor and will feature the sintered rotor.
Quoting from the PR: "the Crawler Brushless Motor is also compatible with all Novak brushless ESCs.....The Crawler motor with any of these ESCs are an ideal setup for beginning drivers who are looking for slower speeds and longer run times."
06-18-2007, 05:23 PM
#37
Tech Regular
iTrader: (4)
My son has been testing the 17.5 w/ lipo for the Southwest tour and has great results. This is in a pancar. The speeds are the same as 10.5 w/ 4 cell if you don't add any weight for the lipo. This motor would be great in sedans. We were told that Novak didn't want us, Southwest Tour, to run the crawler motor because it didn't have thermal protection. Has this changed?
I would like to give Novak a big thanks for listening to the oval crowd and providing us with a motor to run with lipos that would be equal to 19t/10.5. They are also working on a BL motor that is a stock equivalent for pancar racing.
Novaktwo- how do I go about buying the 17.5 motor?
I would like to give Novak a big thanks for listening to the oval crowd and providing us with a motor to run with lipos that would be equal to 19t/10.5. They are also working on a BL motor that is a stock equivalent for pancar racing.
Novaktwo- how do I go about buying the 17.5 motor?
06-18-2007, 05:24 PM
#38
Novak will soon be offering a 17.5T motor for spec racing----SW Tour (ARCOR) has been testing. The motor can be built as an EX (bonded rotor) or an SS Pro (sintered rotor). We can upload the motors to Shopatron anytime if clubs or tracks are interested in trying them out.
Granted a lot of our testing has been w/ the Peak/Orion 3200 LIPO battery, I feel that the difference between that and a normal 6 cell NiMh will be minimal.
I can say, for those who currently run STOCK / 6 cell TOURING - BE PREPARED TO PUT SOME GEAR ON YOUR CAR
Comparing to current style "rebuildable" STOCK brushed motors, the 17.5 will have dramatically less RPM under power load conditions.
...if you know your LOADED RPM's @ approx 25 amps @ 7.2 - 7.3 volts of a brushed motor...it would be very handy to compare with what we believe is close to a loaded rpm on the 17.5 of around 16,500 rpms.
06-18-2007, 05:33 PM
#39
I hope all the motor companies are cooperating in this matter. There are so many variables and loop holes in the current rules that if the manufacturers are not proactive in closing them we will have a $80 BL motor of the month game starting very soon.
06-18-2007, 06:21 PM
#40
I hope all the motor companies are cooperating in this matter. There are so many variables and loop holes in the current rules that if the manufacturers are not proactive in closing them we will have a $80 BL motor of the month game starting very soon.
For this reason, we've chosen to stay with ONE mfg. in the LOWER classes, that would be like a NON-PRO division.
I do feel that PRO/EXPERT types of classes should have the reins lifted, otherwise I think the rules need to be pretty dang tight.
From a small time race director/promoter what I would like to see is EQUALITY, CONSISTENCY and a set of STANDARDS.
- Same Type of Winding
- Same Number of Winds
- Control on size and style of winding and wire
- Either ONE or the OTHER on the SENSORED and/or SENSORLESS
- and ANY OTHER 'LOOPHOLES' that anyone can think of.
Edit to add Joel & Adrian's List
- Rotor diameter
- Rotor magnetic material
- Stator bell width
- Stator bell thickness
- Stator web thickness
- Stator winding wire length
- MAX RETAIL PRICE
- ROAR STAMPED
- SPEC TAGS
I know many companies are getting involved w/ BRUSHLESS motors, and to keep confusion out...the more things that can be addressed and controlled at the beginning...the better it will make the racing in the LONG HAUL.
Last edited by SWTour; 06-18-2007 at 10:10 PM. Reason: add to the list
06-18-2007, 06:32 PM
#42
I doubt we'll see ANY cooperation, because everybody wants to OUTPERFORM the 'other guy', at ALL cost.
For this reason, we've chosen to stay with ONE mfg. in the LOWER classes, that would be like a NON-PRO division.
I do feel that PRO/EXPERT types of classes should have the reins lifted, otherwise I think the rules need to be pretty dang tight.
From a small time race director/promoter what I would like to see is EQUALITY, CONSISTENCY and a set of STANDARDS.
I know many companies are getting involved w/ BRUSHLESS motors, and to keep confusion out...the more things that can be addressed and controlled at the beginning...the better it will make the racing in the LONG HAUL.
For this reason, we've chosen to stay with ONE mfg. in the LOWER classes, that would be like a NON-PRO division.
I do feel that PRO/EXPERT types of classes should have the reins lifted, otherwise I think the rules need to be pretty dang tight.
From a small time race director/promoter what I would like to see is EQUALITY, CONSISTENCY and a set of STANDARDS.
- Same Type of Winding
- Same Number of Winds
- Control on size and style of winding and wire
- Either ONE or the OTHER on the SENSORED and/or SENSORLESS
- and ANY OTHER 'LOOPHOLES' that anyone can think of.
I know many companies are getting involved w/ BRUSHLESS motors, and to keep confusion out...the more things that can be addressed and controlled at the beginning...the better it will make the racing in the LONG HAUL.
- MAX RETAIL PRICE
- ROAR STAMPED
- SPEC TAGS
06-18-2007, 07:03 PM
#43
-Rotor diameter
-Rotor magnetic material
-Stator bell width
-Stator bell thickness
-Stator web thickness
-Stator winding wire length
Check out the attached pic. The altered stator would allow much larger wire gauges with the same wind for more power. It would also have less cogging.
-Rotor magnetic material
-Stator bell width
-Stator bell thickness
-Stator web thickness
-Stator winding wire length
Check out the attached pic. The altered stator would allow much larger wire gauges with the same wind for more power. It would also have less cogging.
06-18-2007, 07:52 PM
#44
Would`nt a watt limit and rpm limit created for stock brushless fill all the"loop holes" ?
06-18-2007, 08:05 PM
#45
How would the owner of youtr local track handle on racer claiming ontehr racer was using a motoer with too many watts? How do you tech that? With a Device? Who pays for it? Who tests and calibrates it.
That same goes for RPM limits. Some racers cheat. How do you tech a speedo's RPM limiting setting? Are all speedos set to the same limit actually the same? How do you tech that?
This is the hell that ROAR goes through all year long when it comes to making rules. They have to look at every angle...every problem...every loop hole.
In the end simple implementation at the club level is the most important thing they think about. IT makes think more complicated for the Excom and comitees but it has to be easy to race at the club level.