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Old 06-19-2007, 10:12 PM   #121
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Oh, & someone asked about the extra airgap with Novak's sintered rotors, I actually talked about that with Charlie & Bob at the Novak Race in Janurary(I'd just bought my 13.5 & wanted to learn everything I could about it, plus I was racing with them, so we had plenty of time to chat ), & they told me the reason why the sintered has that is because if they'd made it any bigger, it'd make even more power, which is more than what they wanted it to do. And personally, I think they did it about right, I really like the motor just as it is(I even like it power-wise with the bonded rotor, I just don't like dealing with the extra heat when running it that way, but that's what our local club decided to do, we run with bonded rotors, & run WITH the brushed stocks, & it's actually EXTREMELY close, anyone'd be VERY had pressed to tell who's running BL & who's not).....
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Old 06-19-2007, 10:50 PM   #122
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And at most local tracks I race at, we couldn't care less about what ROAR thinks should be legal or not, if enough of us want to try something, we talk about it & if enough want it, we do it, we make our OWN rules(& don't have to pay some group out of state ridiculous membership fees to do so). Like it or not, more tracks are like this, & the sooner ROAR figures this out & starts LISTENING to what club racers want, nothing will change. Now don't get me wrong, I think there's a place for most everything, but I also think the sanctioning bodies have gotten a bit out of hand, which is why I choose not to join them....
I agree with you on the part on the part about you could care less what ROAR thinks.
Then why the hell are you screamers trying to push something on the other 90% of us racers who use and like brushed motors?
I have never been to a track where help rebuilding a motor was not offered by any of the racers to anyone. You dont need to spend "thousands of $" to race brushed, you dont need to buy a new motor when the com is worn out, just buy a new com. There is no reason not to be able to use a stock 27t for any less than a year.
Did you read Adrian's post about what a can of worms it is trying to come up with a set of BL rules? How are you going to regulate what speedo- sensored or unsensord to use? Which $80 BL motor of the month to allow? How many $80 BL motors are you going to buy to find that 1 good one, that is what racing is about, to get that one fast motor and go faster.
And I have raced a BL before, it just runs and runs and runs, Whoopee! Can I make it go a little faster? Uh, NO. Screw that!
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Old 06-19-2007, 10:52 PM   #123
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what cracks me up is an off-road guy coming into the on-road section and telling us we're full of crap and don't know anything about on-road racing. all the while doing a bang up job representing ROAR. good show of professionalism.

tell you what orange, race on-road for a season and you'll see just how the ease of motor maintenance can improve your game. sedan is not buggy. i've raced pretty much every type of rc car there is and can honestly say that no class requires as much constant motor maintenance and tuning as stock sedan.
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Old 06-20-2007, 01:16 AM   #124
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Why is it that virtually every thread on R/C Tech turns into a negative bashing when ideas differ?

Why is it - guys who have a different opinion that what yours (Not aimed at anyone specific) THEY have to be wrong?

I frequent many boards, most have some of the most informative, and good natured discussions. Put the same info here...and all HELL breaks loose all too often.

WILL LIPO and/or BRUSHLESS Rebuild R/C RACING? NO!

WILL LIPO and/or BRUSHLESS Kill R/C RACING? NO!

Since the title of this tread is about ROAR STOCK motors...and possible rule changes regarding BRUSHLESS motors, I guess in addressing that subject...I personally am NOT in favor in changing the current ROAR Rules to allow B/L motors to run with Brushed STOCK Motors (At SANCTIONED, MAJOR EVENTS)

Now, should ROAR set up a set of Brushless Motor Rules? YES!
Should ROAR consider multiple classes for these new rules? YES!
WHY? Because as the recognized NATIONAL Sanctioning Body for R/C Racing they are the people who create rules a lot of people use as guidelines in their racing. Having a NATIONAL based set of rules allows tracks, clubs and racers some guidance on how to structure classes.
Does having a set of rules mean classes have to die, or be eliminated...or for that matter be run? Not necessarily, but it does give promoters, directors the option of allowing a class - with a structured set of rules.

I don't personally know any ROAR 'directors', and although I've been racing 22 years, I've only been a ROAR member a little over 2 years. But I can say over the past umpteen years, all I see on these types of boards is basically "ROAR BASHING" It's not a job I want - and whether you run ON ROAD, OFF ROAD, or what ever...you SHOULD have the right to have a say in certain rules. However, I don't want a RULE shoved down MY throat because some ON-ROADER wants it...nor do I want a rule from an OFF-ROADER doing the same...DIVISIONS (OnRoad, OffRoad, OVAL, etc can have some of their OWN rules)
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Old 06-20-2007, 06:13 AM   #125
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PS this is not a thread to bash BL VS B. ITs a thread for looking at the future of stock motor racing. As it is now there are no rules or standards. 13.5 is supposed to be equivilent to 27t brush but even with in novaks products the EX vs the SS are totally different in power and speed output..
Above is something from the first post of the thread. Let's try to stay on topic here.

I don't think that you'll find too many people that will argue that the 13.5's (especially the SS) are faster than stock in pretty much every class. That's not the point here. The thread was started to look at what it was going to take to set new rules for stock. Maybe a better way to put it would have been stock brushless.

Personally, I don't think that we'll ever be able to mix brushed and brushless in a single "spec" class. They're two totally different animals and each has plusses and minuses.

The new Novak 17.5 may be a good starting point for a new set of rules in stock. I think that the new rules need to be set up so that the cars are slowed down some. Also, the rules need to be locked in so that there isn't a "motor of the month"
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Old 06-20-2007, 06:56 AM   #126
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The 13.5 should remain as the stock on-road TC motor.You want slower for oval go for the 17.5. We've road tested our 13.5 against brushed for the last 6-12 months.The difference between the top racers is brushled stock A main and Brushless Masters A main is less than you think. You can check out the results your self. Go to the FSEARA.org and see the results of the qualifiers and mains for this years racing.Go to the points and you can see everything.Since I don't race oval I can't give a good opinion.What I can say about the brushless motor and gearing I can comment.The TQ at the last race was not faster than me just smoother in 4 of the corners.His overall gear ratio was a 5.13 in a new Mi3. I drove a CorallyRDX with a 4.41. Motor temp was 138 for him and 154 for me.Again driving makes the difference .There is a point with these motors that no matter what you do you are not going faster.So guys are running 3.96 overall-they are not any faster the motor just runs hotter.Go check it out. The Masters class is now 99% brushless.
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Old 06-20-2007, 07:47 AM   #127
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Funny, I run my 13.5 with the 19 turns. The 13.5 with a sintered rotor is much faster than stock im my part of the racing universe. That goes for both 4 cell and 6 cell (12th and sedan).

At a club level, run whatever everyone wants to run. There still needs to be a set of rules for the brushless motors. Should they compete with brushed motors at big races? Probably not.
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Old 06-20-2007, 08:05 AM   #128
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Ours are all sintered rotors also. If we ran them against our 19t brushed they would get beat.I forgot to mention we race 6 minutes in both classes.
What works for us I guess doesn't for you.
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Old 06-20-2007, 12:31 PM   #129
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Quote:
Ours are all sintered rotors also. If we ran them against our 19t brushed they would get beat.I forgot to mention we race 6 minutes in both classes.
What works for us I guess doesn't for you.
I think this is one of the fundamental concerns/problems people are seeing with the B/L vs. Brushed motor deal.

Some places try one motor..and it seems to fit right in - other places try the same combo and it's way off.

Some if not all of this may be the intensity level and skill of the racers at those particular tracks. A track that has many "NATIONAL CHAMPION" caliber drivers may find things totally different than a track that has good 'local talent' but not the TOP level racers.

That is why the local race directors need the control of being able to work some of these details out on their own. (Now from my point of view) since so many guys have boxes full of brushed STOCK or 19t motors - going brushless will let you have a SINTERED 13.5, 10.5, and if desired a 17.5 motor in your box. A HI GRIP Fast track - may handle the 10.5 very well..where a tight, slippery track may like the 17.5 motor better. (3 motors of different speed ratings vs. BOXES full of the 'SAME' motor trying to have the PERFECT ONE')
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Old 06-20-2007, 12:43 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by SWTour View Post

Since the title of this tread is about ROAR STOCK motors...and possible rule changes regarding BRUSHLESS motors, I guess in addressing that subject...I personally am NOT in favor in changing the current ROAR Rules to allow B/L motors to run with Brushed STOCK Motors (At SANCTIONED, MAJOR EVENTS)

Now, should ROAR set up a set of Brushless Motor Rules? YES!
Should ROAR consider multiple classes for these new rules? YES!
WHY? Because as the recognized NATIONAL Sanctioning Body for R/C Racing they are the people who create rules a lot of people use as guidelines in their racing. Having a NATIONAL based set of rules allows tracks, clubs and racers some guidance on how to structure classes.
Does having a set of rules mean classes have to die, or be eliminated...or for that matter be run? Not necessarily, but it does give promoters, directors the option of allowing a class - with a structured set of rules.

I suppose my initial question could be revised or made into 2 parts:

1-When will ROAR develope a stock brushless motor rule? This would create another class and perhaps within the rule it can state that ROAR LEGAL BRUSHED MOTORS are legal to run in the ROAR STOCK BRUSHLESS CLASS) This creates the new class allowing older technology to enter it. This way your not ramming change at the current stock class but creating a new class that accepts old brushed motors. This is a step forward that does not cut the throats of brushed motor users.

or

2-When will ROAR update current stock brush motor rules to allow stock BL motors? With in this rule set as with number one restrictions and limitation would be spelled out that a stock BL motor must comply too.
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Old 06-20-2007, 12:46 PM   #131
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2-When will ROAR update current stock brush motor rules to allow stock BL motors? With in this rule set as with number one restrictions and limitation would be spelled out that a stock BL motor must comply too.

To be honest I don't think ROAR will ever let BR and BL run together in Sanctioned Competition. Too many "it's not fair" complaints on both sides. There is no REAL resolution to this issue so I believe it will be seperate classes and when one dies.....it's over.
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Old 06-20-2007, 12:46 PM   #132
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Above is something from the first post of the thread. Let's try to stay on topic here.

Word!
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Old 06-20-2007, 12:48 PM   #133
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To be honest I don't think ROAR will ever let BR and BL run together in Sanctioned Competition. Too many "it's not fair" complaints on both sides. There is no REAL resolution to this issue so I believe it will be seperate classes and when one dies.....it's over.

So then option 1 is the fix then? Create the new class grandfather the current roar legal brushed motors to be allowed in the new stock BL class and life goes on. What is still missing is the rule defining what a STOCK BL motor is.
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Old 06-20-2007, 05:05 PM   #134
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So then option 1 is the fix then? Create the new class grandfather the current roar legal brushed motors to be allowed in the new stock BL class and life goes on. What is still missing is the rule defining what a STOCK BL motor is.
True, & that I think is also part of why there's so much heated debate over it, the people racers look to for the call on it has made NO decisions, & doesn't seem to want to anytime soon. Rather than wait till some scheduled meeting time, I think those who can need to gather the data they can & get some basic standards in NOW(& it can certainly be done easily today, considering how easy it is for us to discuss things here, no need to wait to go to some meeting, gather online, over the phone, get it done). Do it & I think a LOT of folks will relax & move on....
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Old 06-20-2007, 08:37 PM   #135
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Letís agree to disagree but respect each otherís opinion. In the mean time, we should just move on to PROPOSE the rules.
this is what was mentioned earlier:


  • Same Type of Winding
  • Same Number of Winds
  • Control on size and style of winding and wire
  • Either ONE or the OTHER on the SENSORED and/or SENSORLESS
  • and ANY OTHER 'LOOPHOLES' that anyone can think of.

Edit to add Joel & Adrian's List
  • Rotor diameter
  • Rotor magnetic material
  • Stator bell width
  • Stator bell thickness
  • Stator web thickness
  • Stator winding wire length
  • MAX RETAIL PRICE
  • ROAR STAMPED
  • SPEC TAGS
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