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Old 06-19-2007, 07:13 PM   #106
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Thats funny, because ROAR says right on their website that Lipos are not leagel! Oh wait the any Mha lipo race? what a joke. another example or ROAR listening to the racers.
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:21 PM   #107
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We have to pool our resources and write to Roar demanding immediate change, otherwise there will be a splinter within the ranks and some other group will satisfy this requirement and prosper.
Exactly what I have been saying, get involved! Great post!

I wouldn't demand though, I would send something that has good reasoning. If you got a nasty email, how would you take it?
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:26 PM   #108
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Exactly what I have been saying, get involved! Great post!

I wouldn't demand though, I would send something that has good reasoning. If you got a nasty email, how would you take it?
Well if roar was being run like a business (concerned about its customers) they should take a nasty e-mail as having a problem(this is where a normal business would address the problem not ignore it)
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:30 PM   #109
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Wow! This is an excellent discussion. The year is 2007! My Festool drill now has a brushless motor! Wake up everybody!!! Wake up ROAR!!! People are spending over $2,000 on a decent electric sedan setup. I just came back from the Express Race at Jackson, NJ. I went with an open eye to see how and why the majority of the sponsored and team drivers are so successful. On most tables, I saw about $1,000 of motor building, comm lathes, dyno's, brush break-in machines, gauges, calipers, drills, and various other tricks and techniques. This is ridiculous. I am a ashamed to tell newcomers to the sport what it takes to get started and progress up the food chain. When I tell them a couple prices for the charger, and lathes, they turn away. Every table had tons of Muchmore products on it. (I will talk about batteries briefly; not to get off the subject) Basically, if you watched carefully, the top drivers were all taking the same lines minus some mistakes here and there. But the winners had the faster motor on the straight. This came from years (over 10 years) of building motors. As I drove back to Maryland, I started to fine tune a racer's equation that I have been working on. Currently, electric sedan racing is 50% skill, 25% luck, and 25% motor.
Man, I agree with ya on some of what you said, but I can GUARANTEE YOU it wasn't motor that won the Express race. Anything anymore, with the top guys, it's 50% driver, 40% car, and 10% Battery/Motor.

The stock motor I used to TQ and Win with wasn't cut for 3 runs. I used it for 3 straight runs, including the main. The only thing I did was clean it. That's something anyone could do without mucho dollar equipment. As far as 19t I used to TQ and Win with... I purchased an OFF THE SHELF CheckPoint Money motor, changed to Checkpoint silver springs and Checkpoint Infinity brushes. All I did all weekend to that motor was cut it between rounds as getting them hot during runs wasn't good. The brushes that were in it were about 20 runs old and the springs were from an Money motor I blew up the weeks before from using it up.

I also used the same battery all weekend in 19t and only used 2 different ones in stock for the whole weekend.

Everyone always says it's batteries and motors, but everyone seems to overlook handling and driving. You can always make a car go around the track decently, but to do it without sacrificing efficiency is key. That's what separates the men from the boys there. A better handling car will look like it has more HP than another car. It slows down less in the corners, hence more straight line speed. Basic fundamentals of racing.

As far as Brushless, it will help tighten some things up and it will allow us to be lazy with motor work. It will just give us more time to work on handling rather than building motors. Believe me, we don't like it anymore than anyone else does.
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:38 PM   #110
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Yep and NASCAR started on a beach with a bunch of thugs and moonshiners wanting to show off how fast they can drive.

Its in and something is started and you still bitch. You are impossible. Its no wonder nobody takes any of these discussions on message forums serious.

Because I'm a rep of ROAR I have to have some sort of higher standard opinion... Because I say it like I feel and don't give you any bullcrap placating response, you do not like it. Oh well. I do not care. I'm still a racer just like you and care what happens.

I'm out, good luck!
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:49 PM   #111
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Can't take it? Oh well. tootles.
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:57 PM   #112
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as a roar representative maybe instead of arguing with people and calling them clueless.......you could listen to what the people want and help find a path to get there.

assuming you can see the big picture and can accept the fact that your opinion might not be right for once
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:59 PM   #113
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THIS IS SOMETHING COMPLETELY OFF TOPIC BUT I AM CURIOUS TO KNOW IF MY SERVER IS THE ONLY ONE DOING IT.

WHEN I REFRESH THE SCREEN IT'S NOT LISTING EVERY POST ON THE PAGE. SOMETIMES HALF, SOMETIMES LESS THAN THAT. I HAVE TO REFRESH 10 FREAKING TIMES OR MORE TO BE ABLE TO READ THE LAST POST ON THE PAGE.

ANYONE ELSE HAVING THIS ISSUE ??

OR IS THERE SOMETHING I SHOULD HAVE UPDATED THAT I DIDN'T ??

I AM ON THIS BOARD EVERY SINGLE DAY AND THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THIS HAS HAPPENED.

ANY HELP APPRECIATED........THAT IS IF I CAN EVERY SEE THE HELPFUL POST AT THE BOTTOM, LMAO !!!

MARCEL
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Old 06-19-2007, 08:46 PM   #114
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lets talk about beginners... if you were looking at this hobby from the outside, would you rather buy a motor that you have to work on all the time? you have to also buy a motor runner, a lathe, springs, brushes, etc... and 4 months later you need a new motor again. and you still have to pay the same ammount for a speedo.

or would you rather buy one motor and know that you'll almost never have to work on it, it will be the consistent every run, and it will last you over a year?
Exactly. I floated the idea of running a brushless motor in our stock class for the reasons you describe above.

Our club is a member owned and operated club. We pay rent for our 10000 sq.ft. facility without the cash flow that comes from people buying RC stuff at a shop. We are just a bunch of guys that want to race. Membership dues and race fees pay the $2.5K a month expenses required to have such a place. The more people we have racing with us, the cheaper it becomes because we are not wanting to make money, we just want to survive and race.

We are constantly loosing potential racers due to the Nitro RTR phenomena. Its easy (relatively) to get up and go buying a RTR buggy and heading out to the dirt track. LIPO and Brushless in my opinion give us electric crowd a fighting chance. Buy <edit> one speedo, one motor, 2 batts, 1 charger and your set for the year with hardly any maintenance other than on your car.

Our need to attract more racers for us to survive requires us to move ahead of ROAR with respect to LIPO and BL in the stock class.

With regards to the BL and BR running in our stock class together....some guys are all over it (no maintenance) and old and cranky farts like Joel keep looking for the worst scenario This is a good thing and this thread is really helpful for us club members trying to decide what to do.

Sometimes I wish we had a hobby shop run track so we could just race what they dictated, but then again, its our club....and I think we got a good thing going....LIPO and BL should only help out I hope.

If ROAR moves quickly on this, we can use their rules as a template and have ROAR do all the figuring out of the loop holes rather than us racers scratching our heads to combine new and old technology and keep fair competition.

Sorry for the rant. I've learned all I know from Joel - Blame him

Last edited by CaliberX; 06-20-2007 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 06-19-2007, 08:55 PM   #115
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As I said before, I am for brushless motors. I am not for leaving companies like Birdman, Axiom, and Banzai who make this hobby and support it to just as much passion as any other company out there in the cold. Those people help out the independent racers and the people you are so argueing for more than anyone!

If brushless manufacturers could figure a way (Which they can) to keep them able to be in business, to keep their livelyhood, then I would be totally on board... But if you are going to think about the little guy, then think about all the little guys.
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Old 06-19-2007, 09:23 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by RussB View Post

lets talk about beginners... if you were looking at this hobby from the outside, would you rather buy a motor that you have to work on all the time? you have to also buy a motor runner, a lathe, springs, brushes, etc... and 4 months later you need a new motor again. and you still have to pay the same ammount for a speedo.

or would you rather buy one motor and know that you'll almost never have to work on it, it will be the consistent every run, and it will last you over a year?
Me being a beginner I think I can answer this question, in my opinion I would rather learn how to build a motor and battery combination and learn how to make it work and make the car handle better. Its a challenge, who wants something that they dont have to work on. That would make it boring, well for me at least. "Oh im done racing let me charge up and go again no work to do here, no motor to cut and tune, no batteries to tray. "As i stated before this is my own beginners opinion.
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Old 06-19-2007, 09:35 PM   #117
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Man, I agree with ya on some of what you said, but I can GUARANTEE YOU it wasn't motor that won the Express race. Anything anymore, with the top guys, it's 50% driver, 40% car, and 10% Battery/Motor.

The stock motor I used to TQ and Win with wasn't cut for 3 runs. I used it for 3 straight runs, including the main. The only thing I did was clean it. That's something anyone could do without mucho dollar equipment. As far as 19t I used to TQ and Win with... I purchased an OFF THE SHELF CheckPoint Money motor, changed to Checkpoint silver springs and Checkpoint Infinity brushes. All I did all weekend to that motor was cut it between rounds as getting them hot during runs wasn't good. The brushes that were in it were about 20 runs old and the springs were from an Money motor I blew up the weeks before from using it up.

I also used the same battery all weekend in 19t and only used 2 different ones in stock for the whole weekend.

Everyone always says it's batteries and motors, but everyone seems to overlook handling and driving. You can always make a car go around the track decently, but to do it without sacrificing efficiency is key. That's what separates the men from the boys there. A better handling car will look like it has more HP than another car. It slows down less in the corners, hence more straight line speed. Basic fundamentals of racing.

As far as Brushless, it will help tighten some things up and it will allow us to be lazy with motor work. It will just give us more time to work on handling rather than building motors. Believe me, we don't like it anymore than anyone else does.
Thanks for agreeing and disagreeing. You are right. In your case, your skills are over 90% of the equation. But we are back where we begun. If you add up all the gadgets, machines, motors, parts etc that you had over the years, the price will be enormous. Now with this knowledge, you come to realize that basic tools of the trade and simplicity along with experience makes a winning combination. There is a lot of people at the beginning, middle or end of this learning curve. All that I am saying is "Let take a look at this curve, update it, massage it" and put specs in place to propel this hobby/sport to the next level.

I cannot think of any other competitive form of racing where a guy can go to the store and buy exactly what a nationally rank guy (like you) have. The "hope" of winning with the same equipment is what has grown this hobby in the past. This speaks well for the hobby.

You can see how the younger kids gravitated toward Honda and Toyota's. They are turbo charging everything and know more about VTEC than their parents know about dwell meters, points and condensers. Brushless and LiPo will bring this kind of excitement to RC.

[ I keep thinking of Michael Schumacher racing a Corvette Z06 (pushrod V-8 1950 technology) and beating Bill Donahue in a BMW M3 because he put a 30 cent shim to adjust his suspension. ]

Great, are you willing to be the Brushless Committee leader? I am ready to send you my campaign donation.
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Old 06-19-2007, 09:58 PM   #118
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I cannot think of any other competitive form of racing where a guy can go to the store and buy exactly what a nationally rank guy (like you) have. The "hope" of winning with the same equipment is what has grown this hobby in the past. This speaks well for the hobby.

You can see how the younger kids gravitated toward Honda and Toyota's. They are turbo charging everything and know more about VTEC than their parents know about dwell meters, points and condensers. Brushless and LiPo will bring this kind of excitement to RC.
I agree with this also,but, by the kids putting turbos on cars that dont already have them and reprogramming vtec systems that are tuned for economy use is the same as brushed motors not brushless. A brushless and lipo setup is more like going out and buying a supercharged mustang that they dont have to do anything but drive it and its already fast. Again what ever is decided i guess we all have to change our setups, but it will take away the challenge of making a car better by research and work rather than going in a store and buying it.
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Old 06-19-2007, 10:04 PM   #119
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$240 for a gtb and a 13.5 or $150 for a gtx and 3 brushed motors at $35 each


so brushless is $240 competition ready

and brushed is $255 not including brushes

on one hand you have less expense and constant performance

on the other hand you have greater expense and up and down performance


wow tough decision
I hear ya on this one, but there's one correction, Novak's already made them cheaper with the EX-Series motors & XBR speed control, buying them together, you can get in on it for about $180(yes, they're bonded rotor motors, but it's a start, & that's a price barely above that of most good brushed ESC's alone). Oh, & I should also point something out to Mr Orange, I know you mentioned supporting the little guy, but there's something you don't realize, WE THE INDIVIDUAL RACERS ARE THE LITTLE GUY. We are the ones who spend our hard-earned money to race & support EVERY company in the business. And at most local tracks I race at, we couldn't care less about what ROAR thinks should be legal or not, if enough of us want to try something, we talk about it & if enough want it, we do it, we make our OWN rules(& don't have to pay some group out of state ridiculous membership fees to do so). Like it or not, more tracks are like this, & the sooner ROAR figures this out & starts LISTENING to what club racers want, nothing will change. Now don't get me wrong, I think there's a place for most everything, but I also think the sanctioning bodies have gotten a bit out of hand, which is why I choose not to join them....
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Old 06-19-2007, 10:08 PM   #120
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Me being a beginner I think I can answer this question, in my opinion I would rather learn how to build a motor and battery combination and learn how to make it work and make the car handle better. Its a challenge, who wants something that they dont have to work on. That would make it boring, well for me at least. "Oh im done racing let me charge up and go again no work to do here, no motor to cut and tune, no batteries to tray. "As i stated before this is my own beginners opinion.
YOUR OPINION OF BRUSHED WILL CHANGE AS SOON AS YOU GET THE CHANCE TO RUN A BRUSHLESS SYSTEM AND SEE THE DIFFERENCE FOR YOURSELF. AND I MEAN "RUN" THE SYSTEM, NOT A TEST DRIVE AROUND THE TRACK.

MARCEL
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