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Old 06-19-2007, 04:57 PM   #91
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Thats nice you named gas races........where you guys can't screw up any rules
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Old 06-19-2007, 05:01 PM   #92
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So what other hoops do the brushless guys need to jump through before roar considers letting them run in anything but a pro class(mod)
I have heard other things quite frankly... From brushless manufacturers not wanting the motors in the same class racing against each other... Stock that is.

There are no hoops, but if you want, I can tell you where another US racing organization gets its rules.... copied page for page for the most part!

Even IFMAR copies what ROAR does.... You should see their outline for their version of an RMT, LOL.

How come IFMAR waits to see what ROAR does before it implements brushless rules? How come almost all the other organizations in the world waits to follow ROAR's lead?

Why do you think ROAR gets the most grief for things? Because they ARE the world leader for making rules. EVERYONE, including the independent races, (My race included, maybe you have heard of it, Cactus Classic) Follows what ROAR does. Understanding what and where things get done is the key to making your judgments about an organization. If you do not know what how and why things are the way they are, then you have no clue.
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Old 06-19-2007, 05:11 PM   #93
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, (My race included, maybe you have heard of it, Cactus Classic)

Wow your pretty full of yourself........Didn't you just buy that place???
Or have you been running the cactus for 21 years??









If you do not know what how and why things are the way they are, then you have no clue.

And because you do know these things you feel nothing should change and people on the outside know nothing
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Old 06-19-2007, 05:17 PM   #94
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And because you do know these things you feel nothing should change and people on the outside know nothing
No I think people should help out to make things they want it to be. Rash statements on a message forum do nothing to help out.

As I said before, I am for brushless motors. I am not for leaving companies like Birdman, Axiom, and Banzai who make this hobby and support it to just as much passion as any other company out there in the cold. Those people help out the independent racers and the people you are so argueing for more than anyone!

If brushless manufacturers could figure a way (Which they can) to keep them able to be in business, to keep their livelyhood, then I would be totally on board... But if you are going to think about the little guy, then think about all the little guys.
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Old 06-19-2007, 05:24 PM   #95
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Racers all get caught up with what they want... It happens everywhere... I even do it at times. We need to get away from that and work together to make racing what everyone wants. Manufactures are not the only ones who cannot get along.... Club racers or independents, do not agree with the pro drivers in most cases.... Everyone has their own idea of what is best for the hobby and NOBODY can agree on a happy medium, That is the problem with this industry! There is always something, but we all have to give a little to get a little.

When you have a world full of my way or the highway, it is always the highway!

(Yeah, just bought it, but ask anyone which one was the best ever and I'm sure they will tell you it was this year hands down! I am very full of myself!!)
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Old 06-19-2007, 05:26 PM   #96
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Well lets apply that way of thinking to the real world

dvd's should not be legal because that would put the vhs tape people out of business

microwaves should not be legal because that hurts sales for ovens

plasma tvs.....noooo way......the old tube tv has been around forever, we cant leave them in the cold




old technology yeilds to new all the time
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Old 06-19-2007, 05:33 PM   #97
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Well lets apply that way of thinking to the real world

dvd's should not be legal because that would put the vhs tape people out of business

microwaves should not be legal because that hurts sales for ovens

plasma tvs.....noooo way......the old tube tv has been around forever, we cant leave them in the cold




old technology yeilds to new all the time
But all the companies that made all of those items, are still in the game.

Nothing new about brushless, it has been around since the 1920's.
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Old 06-19-2007, 05:40 PM   #98
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lets talk about what's good and what's bad for the hobby. too many classes is very bad for the hobby. that alone should be the prime factor in allowing brushed and bl to run together. nobody wants to run classes with 3 or 4 people in them. constantly changing the rules is bad for the hobby. inconsistent rules are bad for the hobby. rules that are contrary to what the members want are bad for the hobby.

think back to the days that rebuildable stock motors were introduced. were they relegated to their own separete class? they offered huge performance advantages by being able to be cut on a real lathe. both types of motor were allowed to run together and eventually rebuildable took over. if brushed and bl are allowed to run together, eventually the better motor will take over.

racers having to buy new speed controllers is not really a valid argument. this is a day and age where people drop $400 to $500 on a chassis every 6 months or so. some racers spend $40 a weekend on tires. any racer who isn't willing to suck it up and spend the extra $180 or so on a new speedo to keep up probably isn't serious enough to be affected by brushed or bl anyway.

lets talk about beginners... if you were looking at this hobby from the outside, would you rather buy a motor that you have to work on all the time? you have to also buy a motor runner, a lathe, springs, brushes, etc... and 4 months later you need a new motor again. and you still have to pay the same ammount for a speedo.

or would you rather buy one motor and know that you'll almost never have to work on it, it will be the consistent every run, and it will last you over a year?
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Old 06-19-2007, 05:58 PM   #99
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lets talk about what's good and what's bad for the hobby. too many classes is very bad for the hobby. that alone should be the prime factor in allowing brushed and bl to run together. nobody wants to run classes with 3 or 4 people in them. constantly changing the rules is bad for the hobby. inconsistent rules are bad for the hobby. rules that are contrary to what the members want are bad for the hobby.

think back to the days that rebuildable stock motors were introduced. were they relegated to their own separete class? they offered huge performance advantages by being able to be cut on a real lathe. both types of motor were allowed to run together and eventually rebuildable took over. if brushed and bl are allowed to run together, eventually the better motor will take over.

racers having to buy new speed controllers is not really a valid argument. this is a day and age where people drop $400 to $500 on a chassis every 6 months or so. some racers spend $40 a weekend on tires. any racer who isn't willing to suck it up and spend the extra $180 or so on a new speedo to keep up probably isn't serious enough to be affected by brushed or bl anyway.

lets talk about beginners... if you were looking at this hobby from the outside, would you rather buy a motor that you have to work on all the time? you have to also buy a motor runner, a lathe, springs, brushes, etc... and 4 months later you need a new motor again. and you still have to pay the same ammount for a speedo.

or would you rather buy one motor and know that you'll almost never have to work on it, it will be the consistent every run, and it will last you over a year?
Personally, I think if I were looking in from the outside as it is right now, I would buy a gas car and get more bang for my buck.

Right now we have to look at what is going to bring us back to the promise land. Is brushless the answer? Who knows... I think in the end we are going to be paying possibly more to go to a race. With the brushless will come LiPo.... With LiPo will come longer time for races.... Longer time for race will come less entries at a race OR more days for a race. If I added 1 minute to each race for the Cactus, I would have to drop 50 entries from the event. To make up for the loss of 50 entries, I would have to increase race entries prices OR I could keep it the same and add a day, but I will still have to raise entries because I now have another day of staffing I have to pay for. Keep in mind that the Cactus is not a handout race. The entry for the race this year was $60 per and no break for a second or third.

Now not only is the racer having to pay more for the entry, but also might have to pay another day of hotel and any rental fee's to boot. Where is the savings, exactly? If you seriously think that a track makes big bucks on a race like that, then your idea of big bucks is a little skewed... The Cactus basically keeps the track open for the rest of the year. Thats it. Without that race, the track does not exist.

You on-roaders are the worst about buying a new car every month IMO... New batteries every month.... A new car comes out and you get it without even knowing if it is good or not. . We got a tc5 on the shelf with a sign that says "car of the week".... We have a JRXS-R with a sign that says "Car of last week" Seriously! Last month X-Ray, month before that, Cyclone, Yokomo, x-ray again, etc..... With electric offroad it is quite different...

Last edited by Orange; 06-19-2007 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:32 PM   #100
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Too many classes is bad, Agreed!

Rebuildable has a resemblance of brushless and brushed except for the fact that all the components of a rebuildable were the same except that you could take it apart. Brushed and brushless are very different in all ways, size weight, specs, speed, torque, everything.

You can use a LRP 7.1 and be in the game for $130 (Again, thinking off-road, yo offroad guy). Add $20 or so and still be in the game and a little newer technology with a GTX for $150. Sphere Comp '07 is $200... and I think that the GTB you can get around $190. Nothing that is a good race quality ESC for less than $150. (I'm not talking on-line prices, more like legitimate hobby dealers who have overhead to pay)

If I were to get into this now, I would get whatever the best of the best is. Since Fuel is more popular, I would probably go with the masses and get a fuel car. If I were 14 again even with the way kids are doted on now, I do not think I could afford to buy the $200 speed control, or the $80 motor... (I see this all the time at the shop, even now and this coming from a shop that is in the High Falutin Scottsdale AZ.) Most kids that come in to buy a new car are very intimidated to race because they do not or cannot afford to get the high end stuff they see on other racers cars at the track. We sell ALOT of kits every week I would say that 1% or less becomes a racer.
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Old 06-19-2007, 06:49 PM   #101
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Orange- Are you out of your mind, IFMAR waits for ROAR! Dream on. There are numerous accounts that IFMAR is a head of ROAR. This elitist attitude is what is hurting ROAR. The only reason I'm a ROAR member is because I have to be to race at a particular track. One example is ROAR is setting back and waiting to make a judgment on Brushless and Lipos instead of getting on the stick and making it happen.

I don't care if all the "little" guys go out of business. That is what we call capitalism. Either get with the program of go belly up. They have had their run now it is time for something better. Roar has a record of protecting the manufacturers and not thinking of the racers. That is why we have had the motor of the month.

As for brushless costing too much, you can buy this for $179.95 and have something that you won't need to cut and brush and wear out.
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:00 PM   #102
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$240 for a gtb and a 13.5 or $150 for a gtx and 3 brushed motors at $35 each


so brushless is $240 competition ready

and brushed is $255 not including brushes

on one hand you have less expense and constant performance

on the other hand you have greater expense and up and down performance


wow tough decision
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:02 PM   #103
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Personally, I think if I were looking in from the outside as it is right now, I would buy a gas car and get more bang for my buck.

Right now we have to look at what is going to bring us back to the promise land. Is brushless the answer? Who knows... I think in the end we are going to be paying possibly more to go to a race. With the brushless will come LiPo.... With LiPo will come longer time for races.... Longer time for race will come less entries at a race OR more days for a race. If I added 1 minute to each race for the Cactus, I would have to drop 50 entries from the event. To make up for the loss of 50 entries, I would have to increase race entries prices OR I could keep it the same and add a day, but I will still have to raise entries because I now have another day of staffing I have to pay for. Keep in mind that the Cactus is not a handout race. The entry for the race this year was $60 per and no break for a second or third.

You on-roaders are the worst about buying a new car every month IMO... New batteries every month.... A new car comes out and you get it without even knowing if it is good or not. . We got a tc5 on the shelf with a sign that says "car of the week".... We have a JRXS-R with a sign that says "Car of last week" Seriously! Last month X-Ray, month before that, Cyclone, Yokomo, x-ray again, etc..... With electric offroad it is quite different...
Wow! This is an excellent discussion. The year is 2007! My Festool drill now has a brushless motor! Wake up everybody!!! Wake up ROAR!!! People are spending over $2,000 on a decent electric sedan setup. I just came back from the Express Race at Jackson, NJ. I went with an open eye to see how and why the majority of the sponsored and team drivers are so successful. On most tables, I saw about $1,000 of motor building, comm lathes, dyno's, brush break-in machines, gauges, calipers, drills, and various other tricks and techniques. This is ridiculous. I am a ashamed to tell newcomers to the sport what it takes to get started and progress up the food chain. When I tell them a couple prices for the charger, and lathes, they turn away. Every table had tons of Muchmore products on it. (I will talk about batteries briefly; not to get off the subject) Basically, if you watched carefully, the top drivers were all taking the same lines minus some mistakes here and there. But the winners had the faster motor on the straight. This came from years (over 10 years) of building motors. As I drove back to Maryland, I started to fine tune a racer's equation that I have been working on. Currently, electric sedan racing is 50% skill, 25% luck, and 25% motor.

We have to go to brushless within the next few months. I see a rapid drop off in new and younger racers coming to the sport. The motor building skills and knowledge base is not there. It very discouraging to see a younger driver with promising skills leave the sport/hobby after their first motor requires a rebuild.

I talked to each racer at my local track and asked if they would run brushless if there was a separate class. The majority of the answers were "hell yes!" Surprisingly, yes came from the faster, most experienced drivers. "No" came from the politically connected drivers who are sponsored by the motor builders. Unfortunately, the "No's" are the ones who conduct the racing programs. The track owner are businessmen and refuse to here these arguments. Coincidently, the "No's" got very fast by having superb motor building an tuning skills and specially zapped motor given to them by the tuners.

In most industries, the aftermarket manufacturers and servicers are the people who grow and maintain the market. Let's move the clock forward-- all electric sedan will be some type of spec brushless and LiPo's. What will happen to the motor tuners such as Team Brood, Trinity, Express, Full Throttle, etc. What will happen to the companies who sell battery equalizers, charges, discharges, tape, connecting bars etc. Will they adapt or lobby to kill or stall BL and LiPo's?

History repeats itself. BL and Lipo direction will come from within. The first steps are in place. Losi is now selling a RTR with a brushless motor installed. This might be a little too little, too late. I guess when China produces a BL motor and sells to Radio Shack for the 2007 Xmas season. It is now up to the hobby shops to push the Losi and similar BL RTRs. Once a bunch a people show up to the hobby shop with these cars in hand and want to race, then the market will be made. This is very similiar what took place with the Tamiya TA05. Another method is for us to find the most influencial racer such as Andy Moore or Rhinehart (sp?) to publicly make a statement that they will no longer run a Brushed motor. The market will turn immediately.

I am drafting the specs to start the Mid-Atlantic Brushless racing series. For small tracks who run stock, 13.5 will be the rule. Large tracks like 301 Raceway in Maryland, 10.5 will be successful. ESC's will be open. There are at least 2-3 manufactures for each type to make this a good start. 4200 NiM will be the limit at first. Lipo batteries and their potential is under investigation. But it looks like the Orion 3300 battery is a good start.

We have to get back to racing where car preparation and driving skills is 90% of the race.

We have to pool our resources and write to Roar demanding immediate change, otherwise there will be a splinter within the ranks and some other group will satisfy this requirement and prosper.

Thanks for reading my brain dump, rant and rage
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:11 PM   #104
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Orange- Are you out of your mind, IFMAR waits for ROAR! Dream on. There are numerous accounts that IFMAR is a head of ROAR. This elitist attitude is what is hurting ROAR. The only reason I'm a ROAR member is because I have to be to race at a particular track. One example is ROAR is setting back and waiting to make a judgment on Brushless and Lipos instead of getting on the stick and making it happen.

I don't care if all the "little" guys go out of business. That is what we call capitalism. Either get with the program of go belly up. They have had their run now it is time for something better. Roar has a record of protecting the manufacturers and not thinking of the racers. That is why we have had the motor of the month.

As for brushless costing too much, you can buy this for $179.95 and have something that you won't need to cut and brush and wear out.
yep, thats me out of my mind, going crazy...

ROAR waiting? LOL... Where have you been? Welcome to 2 days ago when Ryan Maifiled won the first ever electric class using a LiPo at a ROAR nationals.
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Old 06-19-2007, 07:12 PM   #105
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Lipo is in the same class as Brushless. The info is in and Lipos are safe. Put them together and you have a winning combination. This thread is supposed to be about stock motor rules. What I see from Orange, who represents ROAR, is a lack of real interest in advancing Brushless and Lipos. What are they waiting for.
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