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Old 06-18-2007, 09:05 PM   #46
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i spel gud
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Old 06-18-2007, 09:15 PM   #47
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Would seem possible to use a dyno to enforce a power limit at large events for enforcement...


Can`t see how you could make "stock" a race with the "same power ", any other way...
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Old 06-18-2007, 09:21 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM View Post
-Rotor diameter
-Rotor magnetic material
-Stator bell width
-Stator bell thickness
-Stator web thickness
-Stator winding wire length

Check out the attached pic. The altered stator would allow much larger wire gauges with the same wind for more power. It would also have less cogging.

yea like all the stuff that current brushed motor companies constantly change... there needs to be some sort of sliding scale or ratio by which me limit the motors like watts (W) not (We) and torque. make them tamper-proof and go by factory averages... or someting..
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Old 06-18-2007, 09:58 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM View Post
Check out the attached pic. The altered stator would allow much larger wire gauges with the same wind for more power. It would also have less cogging.
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Old 06-18-2007, 10:33 PM   #50
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Default INDUCTANCE

I HAVE 2 THINGS

1. INPUT ON HOW TO CONTROL THE STOCK BRUSHLESS CLASSES NO MATTER WHAT MOTOR YOU RUN.

2. A QUESTION AND POSSIBLY SOME HELP FROM NOVAK.

1. SO FAR AT OUR TRACK, ANYTIME ANYONE BREAKS THE TRACK RECORD IN 13.5 THE TRACK OPERATOR CHECKS THE MOTOR WITH AN INDUCTANCE METER TO SEE IF IT FALLS WITHIN THE GUIDELINES THAT NOVAK HAS ON THEIR SITE. http://www.teamnovak.com/tech_info/m...ech/index.html

I WAS UNDER THE ASSUMPTION THAT THIS WAS THE PRIMARY WAY TO TECH A BRUSHLESS MOTOR AND TO ASSURE EVERYONE IS RUNNING WHAT THEY SHOULD BE. IF OUR TRACK OPERATOR GETS ONE THAT TECHS LOWER THAN IT SHOULD BE ( LESS THAN 37.6 uH IN 13.5 ) THEN HE TEARS IT DOWN TO INVESTIGATE FURTHER.

SO FAR WE HAVE HAD SEVERAL THAT TECH ANYWHERE FROM 36 DOWN TO 30uH. BUT NONE THAT HAVE TECHED AT 27.1 ( TOP FOR A 10.5 ). SO OUR TRACK OPERATOR HAS LET THIS ISSUE GO UNTIL MORE INFORMATION FROM NOVAK CAN BE OBTAINED. THIS LEADS ME TO MY QUESTION.

2. NOVAK GUYS, IS 37.6 CONSIDERED TO BE THE LOW SIDE LIMIT ON A 13.5 ?? IN OTHER WORDS, IF ROAR CAME TO YOU AND ASKED FOR A INDUCTANCE LOW SIDE LIMIT FOR A 13.5 , WHAT WOULD IT BE ? MY TRACK OPERATOR IS SEARCHING FOR SOME KIND OF NUMBERS TO GO BY. I PURCHASED A B & K PRECISION METER TODAY AND IT SHOULD BE HERE FRIDAY. I TECHED MY MOTOR THIS PAST SATURDAY ON A "CHEAP" METER AND IT TECHED AT 36 uH EVEN. THIS WAS AN ORIGINAL 13.5 WITH A SINTERED ROTOR, NOT THE PRO. BONE STOCK , 1st RUN FROM NOVAK, 13.5 . WAS THE METER INNACCURATE BECAUSE IT WAS CHEAP OR IS THIS MOTOR ONE THAT GOT A LITTLE LESS WINDS PUT ON ? I WILL HAVE THE EXACT SAME METER YOU SHOW ON YOUR SITE SO I WAS WANTING SOMETHING TO OFFER THE TRACK OPERATOR SO RULES AND GUIDELINES COULD BE SET. IF POSSIBLE, PLEASE SHED SOME LIGHT ON THIS SUBJECT !!

I KNOW THAT LOOKED LIKE SEVERAL QUESTIONS BUT IT IS ACTUALLY SEVERAL PARTS OF ONE BIG ONE. WE ( OUR CLUB ) HAVE BEEN FOLLOWING NOVAK'S INDUCTION CHART AND USING THAT AS OUR RULES BUT IF THESE NUMBERS CAN VARY FROM MOTOR TO MOTOR THEN WE REALLY HAVE NO WAY, LIKE JOEL HAS BEEN SAYING. I FEEL IF AN INDUCTANCE LIMIT CAN BE SET THEN THIS MIGHT BE THE ANSWER TO MAINTAINING A LEVEL PLAYING FIELD AMONG STOCK BRUSHLESS MOTORS, WHATEVER THE BRAND. IF YOU SAY 36 OR 37 IS THE LOWEST INDUCTANCE MOTOR YOU CAN RUN THEN EVERY RACER WILL HAVE TO FOLLOW THOSE RULES. IF HE DOESN'T, THEN IT WILL SHOW UP ON THE TRACK.

JOEL, I DIDN'T INTEND TO HIJACK YOUR THREAD AND I WILL DELETE THIS IF YOU WANT ME TO. I SIMPLY WANTED TO BRING UP SOMETHING THAT MIGHT NOT HAVE BEEN ADDRESSED. I DON'T KNOW "EVERYTHING" ABOUT BRUSHLESS MOTORS BUT IN MY OPINION, THE INDUCTANCE OF A MOTOR, TECHED BY 1 BRAND OF LCR OR INDUCTANCE METER, THROUGHOUT ROAR ARCOR, ETC. , SHOULD PRODUCE THE SAME OR CLOSE TO THE SAME NUMBERS. THERE BY SETTING THE LIMIT ON STOCK MOTORS NO MATTER WHO MAKES IT.

MARCEL
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Old 06-18-2007, 11:04 PM   #51
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Tally,

When we started looking into a NEW B/L motor, we wanted something that would run comprable to STOCK 4 cell OVAL times, using a 2c LIPO 3200/Peak-Orion style pack.

The 17.5 motor FAILED this test. However, we continued to do some testing with this motor on some other areas...just to see what it would do.

With the LIPO's we were able to put the 17.5 motor Head to Head against the 10.5 motors running 4 cell NIMH..the results were virtually identical lap times...over and over and over and over. AWESOME - but not what we were looking for, but we put this in our notes as a possible future idea...

I was asked on HOBBYTALK by some guys interested in running a 4 cell SPEC type class about the use of this motor for a 4 cell B/L type spec class. The 13.5 motor had already proved to be faster than that group wanted, compared to the SPEC stuff they were running.

So far we've got very little test data on this setup, but THE Very first test out of the box, the 17.5 motor on 4 cells ran identical times to the other cars in the 'SPORTSMAN STOCK' class it was tested in. I personally believe it will go FASTER, and will probably be a good "STOCK" equivilant 4 cell motor. (Where the 13.5 runs on a oval track 3-4 laps quicker so far)

A 17.5 on regular 6 cell in a TOURING CAR I believe will net virtually the same times as the current STOCK motors on 6 cell. I was hoping to be able to have these tests done already, but our LOCAL track/club had some issues and hasn't raced (until last weekend) virtually all year. We do have some very good local talent that I want to feed these motors to for the testing...(Cause I don't do roadcourse)

Now that NOVAK will have these motors available, I'm hoping a few other people will pick them up..and do a little testing on their own. (Just give them a FAIR CHANCE - I really hate reading peoples tests where they put something in the car ONCE..didn't like it..and said "IT SUCKS")

I sent one of the TEST motors I have to ARIZONA for a couple of their guys to shake down...I'm hoping to have their results in the next week or two.

(NOTE: We are still working on finding the LIPO/STOCK motor we were originally looking for too - we are testing a couple other SLOWER motors yet)

NOVAK has been SOOOOO Awesome meeting with the requests of J.B. (ARCOR) and myself. THANK YOU FOR YOUR SUPPORT~~~
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Old 06-19-2007, 12:05 AM   #52
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LRP also has a 15.5 which I would consider closer to stock. but here is the big avantage to BL over brushed in the same race. the BL doesn't fall off like a brushed motor. yes it heats up but you have no lose of power due to the brushes losing seration and carbon buildup on the comm itself. which means a BL motor can still run strong at the end of a race making up any time it might of lost on power in the front of the race. and I have noticed more clubs going to longer races with the 42 and 4300s suppling power up to 7 to 8 minutes on stock touring. we are already running 7 minute mains on the offroad track where I race. some guys want a 10 minute main running 19t/4300bl and as the 4600 packs come out it's only going to allow you to run longer races whihc will make your racers happy to get more track time.
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Old 06-19-2007, 03:58 AM   #53
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Back when I tested a 14.5 motor with a bonded magnet this motor in TC stock road course was slower than a brushed motor. I'll stick with the 13.5 with sintered magnet in road course.At our last state race the Brushless and brushed were about equal.They are beginning to run the 13.5 on the local oval track. Results I don't know.
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Old 06-19-2007, 05:20 AM   #54
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Fugimo: Good questions and on topic.

Im liking the info coming in here..

That LRP 15.5 adds to the confusion now
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Old 06-19-2007, 05:50 AM   #55
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Fujimo - have u tried measuring the inductance of different BL brands? wonder if they would fall within the ballpark number quoted by Novak.
the numbers are good for differentiating between sintered and bonded rotors .. but what happens when u make comparison between different brands, like the novak 13.5 vs LRP 13.5?
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Old 06-19-2007, 08:38 AM   #56
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Marcel, I have forwarded your questions to Novak's engineering department.
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Old 06-19-2007, 08:42 AM   #57
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Default INDUCTANCE

NO I HAVEN'T. BUT THEN AGAIN, I AM A NOVAK PERSON. NOTHING AGAINST THE OTHER BRANDS, BUT AT OUR LOCAL TRACK, NOVAK MOTORS ARE IT.

BUT I ALSO HAVEN'T HAD A METER TO DO TESTING WITH. ONCE IT COMES IN, I WILL BE ABLE TO COMMENT ON AT LEAST MY BRUSHLESS 13.5'S AND HOW THEY COMPARE. I HAVE AN OLD ONE AND HAVE A NEW PRO STOCK ON THE WAY. BY WHAT I HAVE READ THEY SHOULD BE THE SAME BUT I HAVE ALREADY SEEN THAT MY OLD ONE HAS MORE POWER.

MY BELIEF IS THAT WHEN NOVAK DESIGNED THE FIRST 13.5 THE PLAN FOR USING A SINTERED ROTOR WASN'T IN EXISTENCE. I MIGHT BE, AND PROBABLY AM WRONG ABOUT THIS BUT HOW ELSE WOULD YOU EXPLAIN A DIFFERENCE OF 3 POINTS IN INDUCTANCE ?? AND THAT IS FACTORING IN THE ACCURACY RATE OF THE METER ( + OR - 2 ).

I HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT INDUCTANCE IS INDUCTANCE, NO MATTER WHAT THE MOTOR OR MAKER. I AM NOT SAYING THAT IT CAN'T BE ALTERED FROM ONE "ROTOR" TO ANOTHER BUT THE BASE INDUCTANCE , BEING THAT WITH THE ROTOR OUT OF IT, SHOULD BE VERY CLOSE TO THE SAME ON EVERY MOTOR. I HAVE READ THAT ALL NOVAK MOTORS ARE HAND WOUND SO THAT SHOULD MEAN EVERY MOTOR HAS THE SAME NUMBER OF WINDS.

I AM NOT A BRUSHLESS "GURU" BUT I HAVE PLAYED WITH THEM LONG ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT I WILL NOT BEING GOING BACK TO A BRUSHED MOTOR EVER.....EVER EVER EVER !!

I ALSO HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT THE TORQUE DIFFERENCE FROM A BONDED ROTOR TO A SINTERED ROTOR INVOLVING THE AIR GAP. SEEMS TO ME THAT WHILE THE SINTERED ROTOR PROVIDES MORE POWER THERE IS AN INCREASE IN THE AIR GAP WHERE THERE WASN'T AS MUCH OF ONE WHEN WE HAD THE BONDED ROTORS. IF THAT BE THE CASE, IS IT POSSIBLE TO PUT A BIGGER SINTERED ROTOR IN A 13.5 CAN ?

I KNOW THAT THIS IS OFF TOPIC SLIGHTLY BUT STILL FALLS UNDER THE SUBJECT OF GAUGING A B/L MOTOR AND HOW MUCH MORE POWER IS STILL THERE FOR THEM.

MARCEL
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Old 06-19-2007, 08:58 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NovakTwo View Post
Marcel, I have forwarded your questions to Novak's engineering department.

THANK YOU.

I POSTED IT HERE IN HOPES OF GETTING A FASTER RESPONSE FROM SOMEONE AND TO HELP SHED LIGHT ON THIS SUBJECT FOR EVERYONE.

I KNOW THERE ARE A TON OF QUESTIONS THAT NOVAK HAS TO ANSWER EVERY DAY BUT I FEEL THAT NOVAK ENGINEERS HAVE A BASELINE INDUCTANCE THEY WORK OFF OF. MY FATHER IN LAW IS A RETIRED ELECTRICAL ENGINEER AND WORKED IN ALL AREAS OF THE ELECTRICAL FIELD FOR 35 YEARS. WHEN I SPOKE WITH HIM ABOUT AN ACCURATE WAY OF TESTING THE MOTORS AND KEEPING EVERYONE WITHIN THE SAME POWER RANGE, THE INDUCTANCE METHOD WAS THE FIRST TO POP OUT OF HIS MOUTH. AND I HADN'T MENTIONED IT TO HIM PREVIOUSLY SO I KNEW THERE WAS SOMETHING THERE.

I, ALONG WITH EVERYONE THAT CARES, WILL BE ANXIOUSLY AWAITING SOME INFORMATION FROM YOUR NOVAK ENGINEERS.

MARCEL
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Old 06-19-2007, 08:59 AM   #59
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yea like all the stuff that current brushed motor companies constantly change... there needs to be some sort of sliding scale or ratio by which me limit the motors like watts (W) not (We) and torque. make them tamper-proof and go by factory averages... or someting..
Finally someone else who knows how stock could regain some creditability...

Show the consumer (New racer`s ) that everyone has the same chance to win and watch !

The sport of stock will begin to grow again...

Only the motor company's will reject this method of enforcement, as then they will not be able to sell you a even faster stock motor every few month`s....


Stock is suppose to be equal power and speed ....
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Old 06-19-2007, 11:01 AM   #60
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I've said it before, and I'll say it again:
According to the laws of physics, there is only 1 true way of classifying these motors: The amount of power (Watts) produced at 7.2V.

(Kv rating is no good because it takes torque completely out of the equation. It's a rating with no load. It gives you an idea, but it's not an accurate way to measure power of a motor. You need to look at both RPM and Torque to determine the power of a motor.)

HP (Watts) = RPM x Torque
746 Watts = 1 electric horsepower
I love to quote Big Jim who used to say:
"Horsepower is horsepower! Speed then, is just a matter of gearing."

It's been my opinion for some time, that ROAR should determine our classes by power. Examples:
Spec class: 100 Watts of power maximum
Stock class: 150 Watts of power maximum
Super Stock class: 200 Watts of power maximum
Modified class: Unlimited power

This way, it does not matter who makes the motor, or how many windings it has, or the types of windings, or the magnets, bearings, or any technology etc.. This solution allows you to even mix and match brushed and brushless, and even different manufacturers. I think the only thing needed for this to happen is an increased availability of dynos.


Quote:
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Would`nt a watt limit and rpm limit created for stock brushless fill all the"loop holes" ?
Yes, if a watt limit was set, then it would fill all the technical loop holes. You'll notice that HP (Watts) is the combination of torque and RPM. Therefore you don't have to be concerned about limiting RPM's.

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Nope...that just causes more problems and more rules.
How would the owner of youtr local track handle on racer claiming ontehr racer was using a motoer with too many watts? How do you tech that? With a Device? Who pays for it? Who tests and calibrates it.
That same goes for RPM limits. Some racers cheat. How do you tech a speedo's RPM limiting setting? Are all speedos set to the same limit actually the same? How do you tech that?
This is the hell that ROAR goes through all year long when it comes to making rules. They have to look at every angle...every problem...every loop hole.

In the end simple implementation at the club level is the most important thing they think about. IT makes think more complicated for the Excom and comitees but it has to be easy to race at the club level.
Adrian, you have to keep the two topics separated. Cheating / local track tech'ing is one topic, and defining what motors are ROAR approved is another topic. Cheating / tech'ing is always going to be an issue regardless of rules, and it's really not applicable to this thread. If ROAR determined our motor classes by power, then it would be a step in the right direction. One step at a time.

I would love to see some dynos become more commonly available. This would certainly help make things easier. But in the meantime, it might be possible for this to work now. Let's say, ROAR announces they will start classifying motors classes by power. They announce their testing dynos will be the CE Turbo Dyno. A new rule is added: To maintain approval status for that motor, ROAR will perform random testing on any new-in-package, off-the-shelf motor, from any hobby store. (Manufacturers will reimburse ROAR for these purchases. ROAR could send the motors to the manufacturer when testing is done). In the event that a motor is found that exceeds the wattage rating, a warning will be sent to the manufacturer and a public announcement will be made. More testing will be performed. If more than x amount (maybe 0.5%?) of motors are found exceeding the wattage limit, the motor will lose it's ROAR approval status until the manufacturer resolves the problem and the approval process is restarted and passed.

Obviously, it would be very costly for manufacturers to lose their ROAR approval status, and they would quickly learn to make sure the motors never exceed the wattage limits. They would account for their manufacturing tolerance variations and make a motors that are just shy of the limit so they would never exceed.

Last edited by James35; 06-19-2007 at 12:35 PM.
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