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Old 06-17-2007, 07:59 PM   #16
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At my local track during a practice session me and a friend were running co27's in a t1 and t2007. Another guy had a pan car with a 13.5 stock brushless motor in it and down the straight the xrays were actually slightly pulling away from the pan car. So there seems to be no advantage in speed for the ones running 13.5's.
Thats off topic. We are not debating which is better or faster... Fact is your guy running the pan car was either running poor batteries or gear incorrectly. We can probably post a dozen examples of how something our ran something using xyz battery or motor.. Thats not really the point of this topic.

How do we move stock brushed classes as we know it now under ROAR to the next level of stock brushless?
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Old 06-17-2007, 08:04 PM   #17
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Thats off topic. We are not debating which is better or faster... Fact is your guy running the pan car was either running poor batteries or gear incorrectly. We can probably post a dozen examples of how something our ran something using xyz battery or motor.. Thats not really the point of this topic.

How do we move stock brushed classes as we know it now under ROAR to the next level of stock brushless?

joel, your absolutely right. the market is about to be hit with a batch of 13.5 of various manufacturers, and there is nothing keeping any of them from being significantly faster than the already too fast novak.. remember novak was actually trying to make a STOCK EQUIVELANT, not "the fastest 13.5" it could...
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Old 06-17-2007, 08:07 PM   #18
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Thanks tally im glad to see we are on the same page here.

I also though at one time that novak actually had a "STOCK" limiter in one of there ESC that would limit the rpm of the motor regardless of battery voltage... Ill have to dig up info on that, might have been a sick dream of mine or i read it somewhere.
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Old 06-17-2007, 08:17 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Joel Lagace View Post
Thanks tally im glad to see we are on the same page here.

I also though at one time that novak actually had a "STOCK" limiter in one of there ESC that would limit the rpm of the motor regardless of battery voltage... Ill have to dig up info on that, might have been a sick dream of mine or i read it somewhere.
Big issues with heat, feel and reliability. I believe the FET's take the brunt of a limiter and shed the energy as heat.
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Old 06-17-2007, 08:23 PM   #20
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Here is what i was talking about it was on the original novak brushless combo not sure if these profiles are in effect anymore or if they would do anything to equal power out put: SPORTSMAN mode below

SUPER SPORT SPEED CONTROL FEATURES
4-7 cell input voltage
6 user-selectable throttle programs:
SS STANDARD (forward/brake/reverse) Unlimited rpm and acceleration
SS STANDARD (forward/brake) Unlimited rpm and acceleration
SS HIGH (forward/brake/reverse) SS STANDARD with higher minimum brake
SS HIGH (forward/brake) SS STANDARD with higher minimum brake
SPORTSMAN (Limited rpm and acceleration) with reverse
SPORTSMAN (Limited rpm and acceleration) forward and brake only


Anyway now im getting off topic
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Old 06-17-2007, 09:07 PM   #21
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On our local good sized outdoor track brushed stock cant compete with the 13.5 BL. The BLs are turning 19t lap times.
One of the top BL is using an unsensored speedo and is clearly faster than the rest.Rules are going to need some major revamps to keep parity in BL.
And as far as BL is going to help the new drivers, just what they need, more power than a stock. Another BL motor needs to offered to compete with stock brushed and to help the new drivers.
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Old 06-18-2007, 07:26 AM   #22
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Novak tested a 12.5 and 14.5 last year to see what was closer to stock.The 14.5 in road course was way slower and the 12.5 was faster. That's why he came up with the 13.5.To run at a local club ROAR has always allowed the local clubs to change things.You can't change the rules for higher level races.
If you local club want to run Brushless and brushed together it's their decision.If you want to run Lipos run them.If you don't know the ROAR rules on what a club can do first read the book and then contact your region director and ask them.If they don't know the answer they find the answer for you.I know I did when I held the position. The State series here in Florida has always taken the lead for ROAR .We are running the Brushless in Masters class and now everyone wants brushless in stock and 19t the 10.5 for the upcoming racing season.
If you have not figured it out yet the Brushless motors and Lipos is here to stay and the brushed motors will be going bye- bye real soon.As for the batteries ever since I've been racing they have always gotten better.Some better than others. Try squeezing 8 minutes in 1/12th stock or mod with 1200's.That was before ESC- we had wiper arms.Now we have 4600's the same size.Change is here to a new form of battery.I Remember the first metal hydes being tested- they blew up while running at Lake Whippoorwill.
They same thing about motors when the old 540 motors were replaced by the Lemans style and then the total rebuildable motors and now Brushless.
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Old 06-18-2007, 08:19 AM   #23
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I'm from the same club as Joel Lagace.

I want to race BL for only 1 reason: No motor maintenance and then more track time or more car setup.

Again I just hope that in the near future, ROAR will do sometime.

Good topic Joel
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Old 06-18-2007, 08:59 AM   #24
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This might not be a popular thing to write in the onroad forum so I'll go ahead and put on my flame retardant suit: I don't think getting BL motors into the stock class should be the issue. I think the issue should be completely getting rid of the stock and 19T classes at the regional and national level. Clubs should be able to do whatever they want, but ROAR and other sanctioning bodies should have just one class for each type of vehicle. Run whichever batteries, motor, or car you want as long as it's the correct scale and it makes minimum weight.

After watching the electric off-road nats last weekend, I'm a little fired up about this topic...
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Old 06-18-2007, 09:55 AM   #25
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ehhh? no clasees? just open? what we need are classes that are much further apart.. stock is too fast and 19t cars can practically outrun mods on most tracks.. we need something like the mabuchi's something between 27 and 19 and open...
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Old 06-18-2007, 10:49 AM   #26
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A slower class is definitly needed. Stock is a good class, if it wasn't why are there so many good drivers hanging out in these classes at the club level (or national for that matter). There needs to be a slower beginner class, to even up racing for the less qualified drivers. Setting up a car step by step from the kit manual settings or RTR settings while trying to keep it off the boards when you don't know what you are doing is a frustrating proposition. Many guys/kids would like help, some others would sooner go tell you to go sit on a pineapple than take your advice. Either way, it shouldn't require help from anyone to get the new driver to go around the track without trashing their car. The lower main early lap crash fests that occure due to nerves/cold tires/fresh batts really shouldn't be happening, and it isn't good for the racer, track or racing in general.

At the very least, this would seperate the seasoned stock drivers (Who complain about the crashers; why are you in stock anyway?) from the guys who need more time between corners, and replacing arms or uprights.

Novak should build a siver can equilivent and offer it as a special order item that the dealers are not required to stock. If the club decides to run them, then they can stock them. Its not like it requires a complete redesign, and it is also the way to getting lipo batteries into 12th scale. If they are going to run 6 cell voltages, then they are going to need a higher wind motor to slow them down so someone doesn't die.
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Old 06-18-2007, 11:36 AM   #27
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From what I've heard int he past, ROAR is interested in setting up rules for an entry level "stock brushless" class. From what I hear, there hasen't been anything submitted by any of the manufacturers to set the new rules.
My guess is that whoever gets a reasonable rules suggestion in first will set the rules for everyone to follow.

The rules should include all of the major parameters that can affect performance not just the number of winds and wire size.

I think that we need to slow the entry class down either by higher wind motors or less voltage.
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Old 06-18-2007, 11:42 AM   #28
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....
Novak should build a siver can equilivent and offer it as a special order item that the dealers are not required to stock. If the club decides to run them, then they can stock them. Its not like it requires a complete redesign, and it is also the way to getting lipo batteries into 12th scale. If they are going to run 6 cell voltages, then they are going to need a higher wind motor to slow them down so someone doesn't die.
Novak will soon be offering a 17.5T motor for spec racing----SW Tour (ARCOR) has been testing. The motor can be built as an EX (bonded rotor) or an SS Pro (sintered rotor). We can upload the motors to Shopatron anytime if clubs or tracks are interested in trying them out.
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Old 06-18-2007, 01:10 PM   #29
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Novak will soon be offering a 17.5T motor for spec racing----SW Tour (ARCOR) has been testing. The motor can be built as an EX (bonded rotor) or an SS Pro (sintered rotor). We can upload the motors to Shopatron anytime if clubs or tracks are interested in trying them out.
Yeah, I'd like to see that for our area... 13.5's too fast for a beginner like my ten-year old. Please put it on Shopatron.
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Old 06-18-2007, 02:33 PM   #30
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Novak will soon be offering a 17.5T motor for spec racing----SW Tour (ARCOR) has been testing. The motor can be built as an EX (bonded rotor) or an SS Pro (sintered rotor). We can upload the motors to Shopatron anytime if clubs or tracks are interested in trying them out.
I am a mind reader.
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