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Old 06-21-2007, 07:53 AM   #136
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Originally Posted by TeamB&B View Post
Wow! This is an excellent discussion. The year is 2007! My Festool drill now has a brushless motor! Wake up everybody!!! Wake up ROAR!!! People are spending over $2,000 on a decent electric sedan setup. I just came back from the Express Race at Jackson, NJ. I went with an open eye to see how and why the majority of the sponsored and team drivers are so successful. On most tables, I saw about $1,000 of motor building, comm lathes, dyno's, brush break-in machines, gauges, calipers, drills, and various other tricks and techniques. This is ridiculous. I am a ashamed to tell newcomers to the sport what it takes to get started and progress up the food chain. When I tell them a couple prices for the charger, and lathes, they turn away. Every table had tons of Muchmore products on it. (I will talk about batteries briefly; not to get off the subject) Basically, if you watched carefully, the top drivers were all taking the same lines minus some mistakes here and there. But the winners had the faster motor on the straight. This came from years (over 10 years) of building motors. As I drove back to Maryland, I started to fine tune a racer's equation that I have been working on. Currently, electric sedan racing is 50% skill, 25% luck, and 25% motor.

We have to go to brushless within the next few months. I see a rapid drop off in new and younger racers coming to the sport. The motor building skills and knowledge base is not there. It very discouraging to see a younger driver with promising skills leave the sport/hobby after their first motor requires a rebuild.

I talked to each racer at my local track and asked if they would run brushless if there was a separate class. The majority of the answers were "hell yes!" Surprisingly, yes came from the faster, most experienced drivers. "No" came from the politically connected drivers who are sponsored by the motor builders. Unfortunately, the "No's" are the ones who conduct the racing programs. The track owner are businessmen and refuse to here these arguments. Coincidently, the "No's" got very fast by having superb motor building an tuning skills and specially zapped motor given to them by the tuners.

In most industries, the aftermarket manufacturers and servicers are the people who grow and maintain the market. Let's move the clock forward-- all electric sedan will be some type of spec brushless and LiPo's. What will happen to the motor tuners such as Team Brood, Trinity, Express, Full Throttle, etc. What will happen to the companies who sell battery equalizers, charges, discharges, tape, connecting bars etc. Will they adapt or lobby to kill or stall BL and LiPo's?

History repeats itself. BL and Lipo direction will come from within. The first steps are in place. Losi is now selling a RTR with a brushless motor installed. This might be a little too little, too late. I guess when China produces a BL motor and sells to Radio Shack for the 2007 Xmas season. It is now up to the hobby shops to push the Losi and similar BL RTRs. Once a bunch a people show up to the hobby shop with these cars in hand and want to race, then the market will be made. This is very similiar what took place with the Tamiya TA05. Another method is for us to find the most influencial racer such as Andy Moore or Rhinehart (sp?) to publicly make a statement that they will no longer run a Brushed motor. The market will turn immediately.

I am drafting the specs to start the Mid-Atlantic Brushless racing series. For small tracks who run stock, 13.5 will be the rule. Large tracks like 301 Raceway in Maryland, 10.5 will be successful. ESC's will be open. There are at least 2-3 manufactures for each type to make this a good start. 4200 NiM will be the limit at first. Lipo batteries and their potential is under investigation. But it looks like the Orion 3300 battery is a good start.

We have to get back to racing where car preparation and driving skills is 90% of the race.

We have to pool our resources and write to Roar demanding immediate change, otherwise there will be a splinter within the ranks and some other group will satisfy this requirement and prosper.

Thanks for reading my brain dump, rant and rage
Yes, this discussion is very good.
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Old 07-01-2007, 07:17 PM   #137
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any more feed back?

Any ROAR REPS around?
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Old 07-02-2007, 08:39 AM   #138
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All of the technical specs are probably needed, but since a motor has to be ROAR approved, if the board just emphasizes what they want the manufactures to produce for a Spec class, and like the other poster posted about outputs of several motors blah blah blah if they meet the requirements of what ROAR (ie, WE) want, then that motor will be approved. Just because something meets ROAR specs, doesn't automatically make it legal to race, we have to wait for ROAR to aprove it, and add it to the approved list.

Hell, in the interest of starting a beginner class, agree on specifications, and share the blueprints. Build the SAME damn motor for a spec class. Leave the rules tuning for the "19t" area of brushless where the faster guys should be anyway, and let that class sort out what works for technical specs, but have the slow motors artifically limited, even past the technical specs. If it isn't in the spirit of the law, don't approve it.
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Old 07-02-2007, 04:06 PM   #139
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Im simply intrested in the next generation of ROAR stock racing. Not creating begginers classes or what ever..

Been at racing since early 90's till now and stock was ROAR stamped. I just want the next decade of stock brushless to be as easy. Look for the stamp and its legal.
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Old 07-16-2007, 01:02 PM   #140
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bump
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Old 07-16-2007, 02:30 PM   #141
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In all honesty, I have not read this entire thread. I was told by somebody reading this that somebody else posted ROAR has not approved brushless until recently. This has me perplexed.

This is cut and pasted from the motor approval list on the website:

Modified Associated/Reedy LRP Brushless N.E.O. 1 gray can, black end caps, VTEC 9/19/2005

Modified Novak Novak Brushless 1050 Tearddown, bare Al can ends, purple band 3/28/2005

Modified Novak Novak Brushless Velociti bare al can ends, purple band 9/19/2005

I see approval dates in 2005 for BL motors.


Also, what I do read here are fascinating OPINIONS..... I'm with SWTour on this, why does posting cause open season on bashing here? I think everybody has wonderful input and I will spend some time reading each post here.

And, yes, I'm a ROAR Rep and nope, I don't come here often so I doubt I'll be able to answer questions as quickly as you would like but I'll check back.... and people are always telling me where I need to go to check out threads... (LOL, a little funny there)

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Old 07-16-2007, 02:44 PM   #142
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YEs it would appear that also missed the title of the thread too LOL jokes

We are all aware that ROAR approved BL for use in modified classes. The topic here is what about ROAR stock motor rules currently they are for brushed only. What im looking for personally is the next step or the next era in stock motor racing. Im looking for a ROAR STOCK BRUSHLESS rule. Forget merging brushed with brushless if thats to much to ask. But how about a STOCK BRUSHLESS rule. Right now 13.5 is loosely refured to as stock equivilant, but there range of performance between even just novaks 3 13.5 motors is crazy. LEt alone the 13.5 from other companies.

Anyway to re-iterate. Looking for ROAR stock brushless motor rule

YEs we been over it already any club and any track can go ahead and make there own bl stock class... im simply looking for the next step from roar. I want to see the days where i go into get a stock BL motor and i see that familiar ROAR stamp on the can insureing im legal and my competators are.
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Old 07-16-2007, 02:52 PM   #143
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At any big event, there are always tuning teams there to build motors. Garrett attends many races and he puts the same attention to everyones motors.

I am all about having large turn outs and better prices and therefore better things happening for the industry. And I don't make all kinds of money. But before everyone lobbies for things to be ultra cheap, just remember that this hobby is expensive for a reason. We are using cutting edge equipment to race cars.

Super uber equipment is not required to make the mains or win a national event. Using myself as an example.

I get some help from Brood, but I am low on the food chain. With no other factory support of any kind I almost TQ'd stock at Paved Nats this past weekend, and I finished 2nd. I did however run the fastest run in stock for the entire weekend in qualifying. (Mains show up being faster because the first lap is counted as about 5 seconds long) This just goes to show that off the shelf equipment can be just as fast as anything else if you get your car set up right, and drive smart. I don't have a dyno, or fancy dischargers. i use my Pulsar to discharge my packs. I have an old Smart Tray, and an 8 year old lathe. I ran batteries I used in Vegas last year. I charged them with an original pulsar, and a pulsar 2.

If you think power is so important, strap in a mod and see if your lap times improve. If they do, run 19t or mod. If not keep working on your setup and your driving. Staying off the boards is the most important thing you can do to improve your time. Extra power does nothing for you while you are waiting to get corner marshalled.
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Old 07-31-2007, 04:53 AM   #144
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Anyone want to get back on topic here and discuss the future of ROAR stock racing?

Once again the thread has nothing to do with wich is better, who can win what race with off the shelf equipment or anything. Its simply a thread looking for the next step in stock motor rules. ITs easy with mod, mod is mod, and brushless is already accepted...

Locally we will probably create our own brushless stock rules based on specing a motor part number. But what most would like to see is that ROAR stamp on legal stock motors, ensuring that your next stock brushless motor purchase is of a motor built to simililar standards limiting the technology so that buying XYZ motor will put you in the ball park. The other great thing is that ROAR has a maximum price for stock motors that brushless should also have in the new rule books.

PS i dont dispute the hobby is expensive but this thread is not about changin the cost of racin
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Old 07-31-2007, 07:39 AM   #145
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I think for brussless to be allowed you would need clear manufacturing(sp) guidelines first which we don't have yet also you would some type of guideline for the speedo's too as far as what can and can't we done with the software or whatever makes them work. that way no one can get over by using a "special" "tweaked" esc which I have heard of rumors that it might be possible if it is or isn't I don't know but it sucks if does exist.


I think the best thing is to have two classes at first brushed and brushless and see what happens because I feel that there are too many people who still wanted brushed and alot of people who want brushless and I guess the better question is how many people would show up to support a large event if they ran a brushless stock class because if there is no support then roar really won't care because in the end the rules are for large events anyway clubs can still do whatever they want and roar really doesn't care about what goes on at the club level or atleast it seems
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Old 07-31-2007, 09:01 AM   #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Lagace View Post
Locally we will probably create our own brushless stock rules based on specing a motor part number.
If you haven't already, have a look at the BRL rules for their 13.5 and 10.5 classes. Those guys live and die by motor performance in oval, and have done an exhaustive job outlining what's allowed. It's definitely worth looking into, rather than reinventing the wheel.
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Old 07-31-2007, 09:08 AM   #147
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Unfortunately, the future of stock racing is all intertwined with the brushless and lipo debate. So maybe Stock Brushless as we think of it today could end up being Mod.

I just re-read the Sept 2007 RCCA interview of TC5 designer Bob Stellflue (page 110) and according to him, something has got to give. The mod cars are too fast for the electronics and tracks causing too many failures and wrecks. He recommends 5 cell, which would be the end for lipos (unless they create a 6v lipo cell for racing) which I don't see happening.

I think they should look at splitting electric racing right down the middle:

1 Brushed Stock 27t motors with 6 sub c cells current weight restrictions

2 Brushless Stock (8.5, 10.5, 13.5, take your pick) with lipos and lower weight restriction based upon a lipo cell.

3 No more mod.

That would be controversial to say the least, and I'm sure all those who know more than me will shoot all sorts of holes through it, but it would accomodate practially everybody. I would be willing to bet that a lighter lipo powered car with a 10.5 or maybe even 13.5 turn motor could turn similar lap times to the current mod without the wrecks or failures and less wear and tear.
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Old 07-31-2007, 09:24 AM   #148
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Didn't we already prove that 5 cell cars with reduced weight were just as fast as the 6 cell cars? That sort of discredits that argument, at least in how it relates to speed. Going to 5 cells doesn't seem to make the cars slower, which you'll see argued by the 5 cell cultists every chance they get. So, which is it, faster or not? It can't go both ways to support whatever point someone is trying to make.

I've seen the argument made that tuning motors is part of racing, and brushless takes that away. Maybe that's true to some extent, but how many top drivers are building their own motors these days, especially at large events? Entire companies have been founded on doing nothing but building motors, which to me shows that it's gotten too detailed for racers, and been taken out of their hands when competing with a company built motor.

I know people will say we'll tune brushless motors too, eventually. Well, they've been on the market for years now, and the ONLY tuning I've seen is from the companies actually making the motors releasing improved parts. If there's so much room for the tuners, where are they?
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Old 07-31-2007, 09:33 AM   #149
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That's the greatest part about racing: People find ways to improve or tune something that's not supposed to be tunable or has already been optimized.

There is no doubt in my mind that someday brushless motors will be tuned with different rotors or timing to create the best powerband given your driving style at a given track.
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Old 07-31-2007, 09:47 AM   #150
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You can already adjust timing, but most people find it just moves the powerband (and where you have to gear the motor) without offering any overall performance change.

New rotors (from Novak) are forthcoming. But from NOVAK, and for the same price. If someone else made that rotor 6 months ago, and charged $50, people would by them buy the hundreds if it offered any kind of improved performance. But, lo, it came from Novak,

People have been threatening for years now to tune brushless motors. Where are they?
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