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Old 06-07-2007, 10:07 AM   #16
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Oh yeah..brushless solves the tuning question...yeah yeah. Next we'll have a thread on hacking your brushless controller, and HOWTO's on getting the very most out of your 13.5 with only a laptop, a hall meter, and oscilloscope.

To answer the question: some of us have taken apart and changed the windings on some brushless motors - the verdict: I can't believe how poorly they are wound in the first place. It's as if some monkey counts off a few coils of wire and uses a punch to mash them into place. I especially liked one where the coil was folded back on itself inside the can, that was pretty sweet.
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:27 AM   #17
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Default Cheater`s beware !

Brushless is easier to tech than those easy to cheat with,brush design`s...

http:http://www.teamnovak.com/tech_info/m...ech/index.html
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:36 AM   #18
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...I've actually had this discussion w/ several people, and this early in the B/L game I don't think it's too important..because guys are still in love with motors that are already too fast to drive...

But when we get into some slower 'spec' type motors, it may become important...

rewinding a 13.5 with a different thickness of wire will change what it does...or dropping it one or two turns...

One of the downsides of B/L motors though is 'THEY ALL LOOK ALIKE', ie: All the Novak Motors in a particular series...look exactly the same on the outside, except for the STICKER. Knowing guys CHEAT - you know guys will show up with a 8.5 and try to slide it by in a 4300/10.5 class if he's slow...

Since you can buy virtually every wind from 13.5 to 3.5, I don't see a real need to wind anything at this time - yeah you could do a 1.5, but MOST guys can't get a 3.5 'TO THE GROUND'
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Old 06-07-2007, 12:20 PM   #19
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One of the downsides of B/L motors though is 'THEY ALL LOOK ALIKE', ie: All the Novak Motors in a particular series...look exactly the same on the outside, except for the STICKER. Knowing guys CHEAT - you know guys will show up with a 8.5 and try to slide it by in a 4300/10.5 class if he's slow...
'
Novak's new SS Pro motors (sintered rotors) have different color timing rings:

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Old 06-07-2007, 12:40 PM   #20
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One way to tech the motors is an inductance meter, but is there a cheaper option than this one (about $200) ?

In club races where you know everyone, it helps just watching who's way too fast, talk to them, warn ahead of time then go ahead and tech. It's amazing, sad really, but some people will probably get slower when they know they are being watched. Too bad. We need to cut the cheaters off at the pass. This is too much fun running BL and not working on motors. We don't need folks spoiling the fun

BL has made our club races more relaxed and enjoyable and some of us are now running 2 classes and still having some time to goof off. Don't let them spoil a good thing.
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Old 06-07-2007, 12:44 PM   #21
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While it's possible for people to rewind their slotted motors (Novak, LRP, Faigao [Orion, GM, Speed Passion, Much More, Checkpoint, etc]), when it comes to teching the motors via an inductance meter, any significant changes will show up.

IE, if someone takes their 13.5 turn, and re-winds it to 12.5 turns, the inductance WILL be lower and it WILL show up on the meter.

Rewinding to different gauge wires with the same number of turns will not really get you anywhere either. I can't speak for the other manufactures, but we optimize the fill rate using the very largest wire guages we can physically fit into the motor for the given wind. This produces the very most amount of power and efficiency possible.

Trying to go to a bigger wire than what we have would be all but impossible to fit into the motor.

Going to smaller wire reduces the available power and efficiency and really only serves to lighten the motor.

Even if you do get the motor rewound most people do not have the equipment necessary to check the "phase balance" as some people have put it or to calibrate the mechanical timing of the motor.

And when it comes to ESCs to realistically make significant changes to the ESC you need some pretty sophisticated equipment and knowledge to talk to the processor, try to break the encryption, then write your own "magic" code that's somehow going to make the motor have more power than it did before

...and even there's no line in the software of our ESC that says something like

"Power Setting: 80%"

... that you can just change with a text editor and be on your merry way to 150% power
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Old 06-07-2007, 01:14 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Steve Weiss View Post
...and even there's no line in the software of our ESC that says something like

"Power Setting: 80%"

... that you can just change with a text editor and be on your merry way to 150% power
ahh crap...
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Old 06-07-2007, 01:22 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Steve Weiss View Post
And when it comes to ESCs to realistically make significant changes to the ESC you need some pretty sophisticated equipment and knowledge to talk to the processor, try to break the encryption, then write your own "magic" code that's somehow going to make the motor have more power than it did before

...and even there's no line in the software of our ESC that says something like

"Power Setting: 80%"

... that you can just change with a text editor and be on your merry way to 150% power
While I'm not sold on the idea that tweaking software of an ESC will yield some kind of magic power, it does seem to be a more accessible option in competitor's ESC's. GM most notably, and CC too, I guess.
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Old 06-07-2007, 09:03 PM   #24
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NOVAK TWO

Thanks for the info on the color ring, but those do still just slide on and off don't they? (which will be cool...I gotta get me some BLUE ones to go w/ all the other BLUE anodizing on my car...cause the BLUE Heat Sink won't fit on my OVAL CAR)

Steve Weiss

Also very good info, and it's nice to pretty much SQUASH peoples ideas early in the game...

I do think I'll end up needing a meter to test, but MOST of the guys who race in my events are at least as honest as NEW CAR Salesmen...


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Old 06-07-2007, 09:26 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by SWTour View Post
Thanks for the info on the color ring, but those do still just slide on and off don't they? (which will be cool...I gotta get me some BLUE ones to go w/ all the other BLUE anodizing on my car...cause the BLUE Heat Sink won't fit on my OVAL CAR)
Nope, the blue (10.5) or orange (13.5) rings don't slide off, it's the same piece as the black plastic ring between the circuit board and the can on the rest of the motors, not the purple ring around the windings. You'd have to unsolder the board, dismantle the board or swap the endbell (sensor board).


Last edited by Turbo Joe; 06-07-2007 at 10:08 PM.
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:17 PM   #26
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TURBOJOE,

Thank you, I had not seen that...very cool

...bummer, I wanted BLUE anodized RINGS for ALL of my motors...LOL

I will stick that info in my TECH book...
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Old 06-07-2007, 10:43 PM   #27
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i have opened many brushless motors, and they are very sloppy winds...

anyone running a machine wound brushed motor? no....why because since they are so sloppy that is more wire, more wire=less power

so.....a handwound one will be all around better....with more constant power, my mega handwound outrunner is way better than the same e-flight counterpart....


its there....someone just has to do it, and it isnt that hard....someone try it and tell me how much wire you have left at the end of each pole, it wont be the same length and you will have a half an inch left...
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Old 06-07-2007, 11:23 PM   #28
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oooooh cheating
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Old 06-08-2007, 07:06 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by flameoutgarrett View Post
i have opened many brushless motors, and they are very sloppy winds...

anyone running a machine wound brushed motor? no....why because since they are so sloppy that is more wire, more wire=less power

so.....a handwound one will be all around better....with more constant power, my mega handwound outrunner is way better than the same e-flight counterpart....


its there....someone just has to do it, and it isnt that hard....someone try it and tell me how much wire you have left at the end of each pole, it wont be the same length and you will have a half an inch left...

Not sure if you have open up a lrp X-11 yet , it is hand wound....
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Old 06-08-2007, 02:12 PM   #30
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Brushless is easier to tech than those easy to cheat with,brush design`s...

http:http://www.teamnovak.com/tech_info/m...ech/index.html
That takes about a minute to do with the best Tech guys - so it'll take ten minutes to tech a 10 car heat - not exactly going to keep up with the pace of the meeting are they??!!!

Yes, it has been done. At the 12th European Championships, a guy with a hand-wound brushless made the B Final and his car was teh fastest thing at the meeting. This is a serious problem for Stock brushless, and it isn't easily stopped.

Hand-winding brushless will be a thing people do, so get used to it.
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