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Old 05-27-2007, 09:34 AM   #46
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Brushed or brushless we will always chase the advancements of technology.

As long as brushed keeps advancing there very well may be a future for brushed?

Brushed may also become a vintage class?

As long as people keep investing dollars one way or the other, will be the direction the technology follows.
As the demand for brushed motors fades so will advancement.
It will be interesting to the future as it develops.
My dollars will be going towards the Brushless Lipo future.
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Old 05-27-2007, 10:04 AM   #47
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I personally think that brushed motors will be around for a little while yet, mainly because of the price of the brushless motor's and speedo. However things will change and for the better!
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Old 05-27-2007, 10:19 AM   #48
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Debate?!? There is no Debate!


Brushed is slowly on its way out. It will be a nice slow death but it will eventually come nonetheless. Come on, time to accept reality!
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:29 AM   #49
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This the final year for the Reedy ROC to be held at the Tamiya track here in SoCal. At last year's race, only a handfull of drivers were using brushless equipment. I was just talking to Bob, who is attending the race, and he said that he believes that all of the invitational drivers, and all but 4-5 racers in open modified, are using brushless equipment this year. What a stunning reversal in just one year!

This race is a fantastic opportunity to push BL to the limit. The very top drivers, from all over the world, are competing. Now companys, that previously offered only brush motors, have the ability to import sensored, BL motors and market them under their own brand names. This ability to promote their own BL race teams, should hasten (even more quickly) the demise of the old brush technology.
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:54 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SlowerOne
And, with the rate of development increasing, those who wish to remain competitive in BL will need deep pockets.
with the introduction of the novak SS series motors, the costs have only gone down. no more having to buy a motor, a rotor, and a new endbell.

and what increase in development? over a year ago, the hot ticket in stock was a novak 13.5 with a sintered rotor, it still is; the hot ticket in 19t was a 4300 with sintered rotor and upgraded endbell, now it's the ss10.5 which is the same exact thing.

and BL costs more? last time i bought a brushed 19t, i spent $50 on a checkpoint, $10 for a set of brushes, $5 for some springs. that's a $65 motor that needs a $10 set of brushes every other race day. so after two months of racing, i'm up to $85 which how much a BL motor costs, and that will long outlive a brushed motor. i really don't care if i have to replace my 10.5 every year, it's still cheaper than brushed.
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:57 AM   #51
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Thinking about it more and more company's are producing brushless motors, take Traxxas for example and how they plan on using their new Velineon motor's in their rtr's!
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:22 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRF415boy
Chill out man i'm only making a statement that is absolutely true. People say brushed is less efficient blah blah blah but the truth is that a brushed motor with rare earth magnets would be just as efficient and would require a lot less maintenance than actual motors, while being as quick if not quicker than the actual brushless.

As for your assumptions, maybe you shouldn't make that kind of assumptions, as i am running a brushless. However I think the actual quality of the brushless systems is rather poor and also you can't run the sensored systems in the rain because the humidity messes the Hall sensors readings and I would like to have the option of running a brushed and be competitive.
Do you have proof that rare earth magnets would make brushed motors better than B/L?
I have read a few posts that said it has been tried and wasn't much better than the regular magnets
I don't know,but it seems to me having the coils mounted on the can would help greatly in dissipating the heat. And eliminating the inefficient com and brush drag helps with the efficiency.
Were can I find info on the benefits of rare earth magnets in regular brushed motors?
It sounds like interesting reading and it always nice to have facts rather than hear say
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Old 05-27-2007, 01:26 PM   #53
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I dont notice as much of a difference in the mod classes but in stock brushless seems much faster.
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Old 05-28-2007, 03:25 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRF415boy
Brushless only have an advantage over brushed because of the fact that they can use rare earth magnets. If brushed were allowed them it would be a whole different game.

Hi Fab
rare earth brushed would not be worth the hassel in TC's

1) motors would be around ú100.00 a pop for a 540 size ,a 380 is around ú70-ú85.00 now in the shops

2) even harder to gear & more problematic to find the gear window ,far worse you have now

3) very juicy motors these ,got power yes !! but runtime is quite bad

How how do i know !! coz i do ,coz i asked questions to find out


airplane sector
as a last ditch attempt to keep brushed motors alive the company's brought in rare earth brushed motors to save there arse's ,it didn't work brushless took over & now it's brushless everything ,even down to the little indoor flying heli`s running with Li-Po`s

on a side note untill the racing scene in the UK settles down to 1 class & 1 power source then i'm not bothering with it

if i can run 13.5/Li-po indoors 5 cell & 5cell/brushless/Li-Po outdoors then i will buy some more crap to this HOBBY' (not sport)
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Old 05-28-2007, 04:15 AM   #55
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Last weekends race the first two cars had brushed motors.

1stplace had 8x2, I had 10x2 and 10x1 and the third had 4.5 BL

The guys using BL still gear it like a brushed motor so they are eating dust

but I got my motor and I am currently looking at ESCs. during the weekend I saw one Novak caught on fire and 2 LRPs blow up.

looking objectively to the subject, Brushed motors are good and they are fast because we know them by heart. BL is new and we still dont know how to tune them gear them or run them. I wrote somewhere else on the threads, as the borg says" Resistance is Futile" Everyone will be BL in the future, not now not tomorrow but it will happen.

I had to cut my motor after each run and it was very time consuming. I am pretty much wasted and tired as hell. Next race I am running BL and I am going to sleep between the races or watch the races for a change and not worry about making the race in time...

Edit:
those "old enough" who remember the time before the tiny escs came out that didnt have heat sinks on, we were using ESC that were bigger than the BL ESC of today.

I sometimes use my old Tekin G12 wich is almost 3 time as big as my Molac I use today. but that damn thing in tough as nails. connect it reverse, short it, drop it in water nothing will happen to it. the new escs are way too fragile. And at 190US a pop they are expensive. So a Novak BL esc at 189 doesnt see too bad

Wait 2 years and the BL Esc will be as tiny as the Brushed escs today. and so fast that Ifmar will vote for 1 cell cars to keep them from passing the sound barrier
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Old 05-28-2007, 05:06 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MR JOLLY
Hi Fab
rare earth brushed would not be worth the hassel in TC's

1) motors would be around ú100.00 a pop for a 540 size ,a 380 is around ú70-ú85.00 now in the shops

2) even harder to gear & more problematic to find the gear window ,far worse you have now

3) very juicy motors these ,got power yes !! but runtime is quite bad

How how do i know !! coz i do ,coz i asked questions to find out


airplane sector
as a last ditch attempt to keep brushed motors alive the company's brought in rare earth brushed motors to save there arse's ,it didn't work brushless took over & now it's brushless everything ,even down to the little indoor flying heli`s running with Li-Po`s

on a side note untill the racing scene in the UK settles down to 1 class & 1 power source then i'm not bothering with it

if i can run 13.5/Li-po indoors 5 cell & 5cell/brushless/Li-Po outdoors then i will buy some more crap to this HOBBY' (not sport)
Well i spoke to people who tried some and they said the complete opposite better run time, don't get as hot and as the torque is enormous there isn't any problems with gearing. The guy I spoke to said a 13T with rare earth was the fastest thing he's ever driven.
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Old 05-28-2007, 07:36 AM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TRF415boy
Well i spoke to people who tried some and they said the complete opposite better run time, don't get as hot and as the torque is enormous there isn't any problems with gearing. The guy I spoke to said a 13T with rare earth was the fastest thing he's ever driven.
If rare earth brushed were around they'd beat normal brushed, but not brushless for efficiency. I guess the 13T rare earth was some other type of motor design used outside of rc cars and not the same as the types we use for racing? If it was the same people would be running with them already, especially if they have an advantage in racing!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ottoman
Do you have proof that rare earth magnets would make brushed motors better than B/L?
I have read a few posts that said it has been tried and wasn't much better than the regular magnets
I don't know,but it seems to me having the coils mounted on the can would help greatly in dissipating the heat. And eliminating the inefficient com and brush drag helps with the efficiency.
Were can I find info on the benefits of rare earth magnets in regular brushed motors?
It sounds like interesting reading and it always nice to have facts rather than hear say
The facts are brushless is more efficient than brushed.
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Old 05-28-2007, 07:52 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toughbeard
Edit:
those "old enough" who remember the time before the tiny escs came out that didnt have heat sinks on, we were using ESC that were bigger than the BL ESC of today.

I sometimes use my old Tekin G12 wich is almost 3 time as big as my Molac I use today. but that damn thing in tough as nails. connect it reverse, short it, drop it in water nothing will happen to it. the new escs are way too fragile. And at 190US a pop they are expensive. So a Novak BL esc at 189 doesnt see too bad
I doubt you could connect it reverse, that would damage any ESC. It could have protection built in to prevent a 'self destruct' scenario but there WOULD be something go wrong. (it's possible to reverse protect a brushed speedo BUT it would need more MOSFETs, be a bigger size and cost more!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MR JOLLY
on a side note untill the racing scene in the UK settles down to 1 class & 1 power source then i'm not bothering with it
Agreed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toughbeard
Wait 2 years and the BL Esc will be as tiny as the Brushed escs today. and so fast that Ifmar will vote for 1 cell cars to keep them from passing the sound barrier
Brushless will keep advancing the same as brushed technology has and continues to do. Brushless ESC's will get smaller there's no doubting that, better designs WILL come along.
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Old 05-28-2007, 08:00 AM   #59
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Do brushless motors still get warm/hot like brushed motors do? I understand its all down to gearing but brushed motors still get warm when they are geared properly!

Kev
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Old 05-28-2007, 08:40 AM   #60
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Oh dear, so much BS, so little fact...

TerryS - the reason no one uses rare-earth brushed is because until this year it was against the rules!

Mr. Jolly - complete tosh! Trinity used to make a 380 drag motor in just the configuration we need and it cost $80. No harder to find the right gearing than anything else. And the last bit is total b******s!! They run harder and more efficiently than ceramic magnet motor. Clearly you've never raced one!

No, brushed cannot ever be as efficient as brushless - simple physics. However, a brushless can never be as easy to tech as a brushed. Rare-earth magnet 19T and 27T motors are THE future for the Stock classes. Brushless are too easy to tamper with, and too difficult to check, for the National races. Clubs and locals will allow the 19T and 27T equivalents, but it won't be long before they give up when the cost of buying the latest one pales, or people find out how to, ahem... 'tune' them!!

STEALTH - why will brushed die? We have had the jurassic 27T motor - which doesn't even use a ballrace or two - for over 20 years and it shows no sign of dying. Maybe Mod will go brushless, but 19T and 27T will be brushed, for the reasons given above, for a long time yet.
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