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Old 05-22-2007, 02:37 PM   #61
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Harsh,

The point was WHY ONE MOTOR - HANDOUTS were used, regardless of which one...there is ALWAYS only ONE allowed. You don't do a HANDOUT race and hand out 1/2 EPICS and/or 1/2 YOKOMOS or even give the racer a choice...it's a ONE MOTOR DEAL. Furthermore the reason for that is or was originally to help make the event about the RACER not the guy with the MOST motors, or the NEWEST motor....it was about RACING.

In OPEN classes, you can use your open motors...this is no different that what WE as a series are offering, but we've been criticized for ONLY allowing the NOVAK B/L motors and/or the NOVAK and LRP ESC's in our 10.5/4300 class, as well as our proposed upcoming LIPO Classes, except for a OPEN CLASS which will be aimed at the guys who SHOULD be sponsored and front runners....running 'cutting edge' products.

I've got a guy in my series who is a TEKIN SPONSORED racer, who just last year was racing for the 'ROOKIE of the YEAR' title. He's upset because he won't be able to run his sponsors MOTOR or ESC in our 'SPEC' type B/L class, because the rules we have worked on based on the testing w/ CURRENT products available to the PUBLIC. ( Does this mean at some point in time, they WON'T be allowed? I can't say until we have the opportunity to see what they have to offer.)

He CAN however STAY in the current BRUSHED STOCK class he's running and run ANY of his Sponsors ESC's, or he CAN move up to the OPEN MODIFIED Class (Like our guy who is running a MAMBA system).

Tally,

I understand that, and IF/WHEN they have a 'sensored' MOTOR and/or ESC that properly runs a 'sensored' B/L motor that can be compared to the current legal products...I know at least I will be reviewing them.

However, we are not allowing 'sensorless' motors in any class but OPEN MOD either....and most of our guys, DON'T want to go that fast.
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Old 05-22-2007, 02:44 PM   #62
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Last edited by Dawn Sanchez; 05-22-2007 at 02:44 PM. Reason: oops..never mind
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Old 05-22-2007, 02:45 PM   #63
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Ah ...ok gotcha ...I misunderstood what you were saying.



Quote:
Originally Posted by SWTour
Harsh,

The point was WHY ONE MOTOR - HANDOUTS were used, regardless of which one...there is ALWAYS only ONE allowed. You don't do a HANDOUT race and hand out 1/2 EPICS and/or 1/2 YOKOMOS or even give the racer a choice...it's a ONE MOTOR DEAL. Furthermore the reason for that is or was originally to help make the event about the RACER not the guy with the MOST motors, or the NEWEST motor....it was about RACING.

In OPEN classes, you can use your open motors...this is no different that what WE as a series are offering, but we've been criticized for ONLY allowing the NOVAK B/L motors and/or the NOVAK and LRP ESC's in our 10.5/4300 class, as well as our proposed upcoming LIPO Classes, except for a OPEN CLASS which will be aimed at the guys who SHOULD be sponsored and front runners....running 'cutting edge' products.

I've got a guy in my series who is a TEKIN SPONSORED racer, who just last year was racing for the 'ROOKIE of the YEAR' title. He's upset because he won't be able to run his sponsors MOTOR or ESC in our 'SPEC' type B/L class, because the rules we have worked on based on the testing w/ CURRENT products available to the PUBLIC. ( Does this mean at some point in time, they WON'T be allowed? I can't say until we have the opportunity to see what they have to offer.)

He CAN however STAY in the current BRUSHED STOCK class he's running and run ANY of his Sponsors ESC's, or he CAN move up to the OPEN MODIFIED Class (Like our guy who is running a MAMBA system).

Tally,

I understand that, and IF/WHEN they have a 'sensored' MOTOR and/or ESC that properly runs a 'sensored' B/L motor that can be compared to the current legal products...I know at least I will be reviewing them.

However, we are not allowing 'sensorless' motors in any class but OPEN MOD either....and most of our guys, DON'T want to go that fast.
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Old 05-22-2007, 03:18 PM   #64
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...meanwhile,

turning the steering wheel to head this thread back to the subject at hand...

'Sponsoring ROAR Races'

I see Dawn working hard on the 'net every day, answering questions, responding to positives and negatives...

I myself have sent several questions to Fred Hohwart, and had them answered very quickly.

ROAR seems to be in the midst of a 'rebuilding' period, and hopefully can continue to offer 'NATIONAL' level races for a long time.

Is a ROAR National event "TITLE SPONSORSHIP" a good value for a MFG? I hope that if it is NOT currently, it can be in the future...especially with more racers showing an interest in the organization and supporting their events.
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Old 05-22-2007, 03:59 PM   #65
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not to get back off topic, but why the bias against sensorless motors.. my impression has been that so far, the sensored motors are faster.. if x brand made a sensorless motor with "virtualy identical" ontrack performance you wouldn't considder it?
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Old 05-22-2007, 04:25 PM   #66
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it might just be a pesonal thing with me...leaning toward the sensored...but I firmly believe the sensorless WILL be faster, and if they are not already...they should be when guys learn them.

For the most part ALL the B/L motors are TOO FAST for most common racers, and I'm not a fan of the idea that FASTER is BETTER when it comes to 'the quality of an event'

IF we just wanted SPEED - we could just allow a 3 cell lipo (what 11.1 volts) with ANY brushless motor and leave it up to the BEST driver. I really doubt that class would be popular ANYWHERE for a 'regular' racer. Even the street bashers admit THAT'S TOO FAST.

When a 4200 4cell powered car with a MAMBA 7700 can run on a 860 ft. banked oval running lap times of 8.4 seconds (which is VERY VERY close to 70 MPH) and where I'm really pushing the 2 cell LIPO deal at a whole lot more voltage...HOW FAST do these cars need to be?

Again, like I said...FASTER does not always make for BETTER quality races....but equal power, equal equipment DOES, even if the drivers aren't equal...the over all 'SHOW' is better.
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Old 05-22-2007, 07:44 PM   #67
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your certainly not going to get an arguement out of me that faster is not better. i just feel that.. novak, i believe went out of their way to make a motor perform as close to a stock motor as they could (it was developed with the bonded rotor remember). not necessarily as fast as "X" wind could go (unlike our typical 27 turn stocks).. i am hoping that other companies are trying to keep this same goal, regardless of their own configuration (number of winds, sensors or sensorless).. if they achieve it and most or all motors perform "close enough" on the track shouldn't we be open to the idea of running them together? some have said that even the novaks have as much as 10% difference from motor to motor.. in the end, all i want is quality racing at a pricepoint i can alive with, and low maintenance, all of which brings new people to the hobby and allows them to stay in it.. any of that make sense..
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Old 05-22-2007, 08:07 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallyrc
your certainly not going to get an arguement out of me that faster is not better. i just feel that.. novak, i believe went out of their way to make a motor perform as close to a stock motor as they could (it was developed with the bonded rotor remember). not necessarily as fast as "X" wind could go (unlike our typical 27 turn stocks).. i am hoping that other companies are trying to keep this same goal, regardless of their own configuration (number of winds, sensors or sensorless).. if they achieve it and most or all motors perform "close enough" on the track shouldn't we be open to the idea of running them together? some have said that even the novaks have as much as 10% difference from motor to motor.. in the end, all i want is quality racing at a pricepoint i can alive with, and low maintenance, all of which brings new people to the hobby and allows them to stay in it.. any of that make sense..
It seems to me if you wanted brushless motors to be equal, a rev limiter would work. I don't know enough about the technology to know if it's feasable but if it was it would be even more effective than a spec handout that can be tuned.
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Old 05-22-2007, 08:15 PM   #69
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the problem with a rev limiter is that you can also limit the revs on a corvette ... it's still going to be faster than a yugo to whatever the limit is... you'd need watt limiters.. it's definately a sticky wicket..
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Old 05-22-2007, 08:26 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamTekin
So if we would have been able to support the local SIR team at the enduro that would have meant more than sponsoring the event. I can understand that.

It is a great example, but I read between the lines guys. How many times can I apologize. We busted our ass to even get there and our stuff performed flawless. You bagged us, not the other way around.

So what is going to take for you guys to forgive us. Should I send cash or drivers to whip your arse? Or just accept that we have no friends at SIR? We did buy the Pizza And I was there for the entire 24hrs. I do not believe anyone provided anymore support than that. As I recall Brood and the Orange packed up early and a few came back for the finish.

My long winded take on this is in the works. Thanks for all the comments.

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I wouldn't say you have no friends at SIR. I was a neutral party to this situation (team CRC) and have heard both sides. I think its fair to understand one team was hurt by this, but its also fair to understand you were having problems getting them set up with the equipment. It happens. It was fortunate, and very nice of Swanka to hook the other team up after that, so they could continue to race.

For me personally, I just liked seeing a few major players in RC products show up, and support what was essentially a local race. The feeling of the race wouldn't have been the same with out it.

You happened to be sitting where our team was cornering, so we got to talk to you a lot, and see your product at work (even if it was trying to beat ours ) and listen to you talk about it. It was nice to actually get to talk to you instead of having to read about it on a forum or in a magazine. I know I had a few good conversations with you, about your new motor and ESC, and about your other sponsored drivers (heres Jason Moberly's plug, since I talked to you about him) that I wouldn't have been able to have otherwise.

All the sponsors that showed up were very helpful, generous, and made the race that much better. I'd hate to think you don't feel welcome back there, and I know I would like to see you back some day, along with all the other sponsors that were there. I think its safe to say a lot of the companies represented there had a spike in their sales from us, at least on a local level due to their attendance. Isn't that what its all about for sponsoring?

And yes, the pizza was a nice gift, especially about 7AM when we were all about to pass out from lack of sleep!
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Old 05-22-2007, 08:28 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallyrc
the problem with a rev limiter is that you can also limit the revs on a corvette ... it's still going to be faster than a yugo to whatever the limit is... you'd need watt limiters.. it's definately a sticky wicket..
True but those are different motor sizes. If a Vette a Mustang and a Charger all have to weigh the same and all can only turn so many RPM's you'll have a good race.
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Old 05-22-2007, 11:35 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallyrc
i am hoping that other companies are trying to keep this same goal, regardless of their own configuration (number of winds, sensors or sensorless).. if they achieve it and most or all motors perform "close enough" on the track shouldn't we be open to the idea of running them together?
I'm eager to be able to do testing w/ other brand motors at some point in time, like I'm involved with for the higher wind "N" motors. I do partially agree about bringing in the other motors too, but they can NOT be approved...just because they are GOING to be made...I don't think anyone wants Brushless racing to go the way of the "STOCK" class with the Motor of the Week days, or even the more recent changing...back to OUR series, and I know a lot of other race programs offer a similar deal... ANY group wanting to create a class we DO NOT offer, is free to do so with at least 4-5 cars at a given event. If that class draws more interest from there...and is able to draw a regular decent amount of entries...the class will be looked at for an actual set of rules. Over the past 9 years, with both my series and the organization I was involved with prior to that...we probably introduced 8 - 10 NEW classes...some grew, some died...but through it all the basic 3 class structure along with maybe ONE optioin class is what seems to keep coming back...if one class is added, another one usually seems to disappear.

The issue with Stock motors, big difference - in the STOCK MOTOR "motor of the week" battle - 90+% of it was ALL based around a NEW Trinity motor, where in this instance...for basically the FIRST TIME - we've got NEW motor companies coming into the game....not NEW R/C companies..just New to the Motor game.

With that being said...How LONG until the big "T" dominates the B/L market and starts doing unconventional things if the parameters are not locked in from the onset? (and the Big T ain't TEKIN)
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Old 05-22-2007, 11:56 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by westerdude42
True but those are different motor sizes. If a Vette a Mustang and a Charger all have to weigh the same and all can only turn so many RPM's you'll have a good race.

that is so not true.... 350 chevy, 351 ford, 340/360 chrysler, can all be built to put out 450hp. and weigh in around 3500 lbs

my kenworth only has 450 hp, and weighs in around 35,000 lbs could any of the above pull a 100,000 pound load up hwy 18. i don't think so. the KW also puts out over 2500ft lbs of torque and thats what moves the load. btw, it developes that hp and torque between 14 and 1800 rpm. so a rev limiter is meaningless

i know that is a extreme comparsion but my point is rpms mean nothing.
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Old 05-23-2007, 01:21 AM   #74
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We tried using the LRP sphere ESC in a class against 19t and 4300 motors(all were with 4 cell)

The Sphere could be used w/ ANY B/L motor as long as it was used in the "Sportsman" mode, that had an RPM limiter. (I made the same arguement that a HIGHER POWERED MOTOR would be faster, once you found the right gear ratio to PULL the limited RPM.)

Of course, it took a little while for that to actually catch on...but when it did, the cars running the Sphere in the sportsman mode...kicked the crap out of both the 4300 cars and the 19t cars speed wise... Usually, they failed to make time...only because that part of the equation never got the chance to get refined before I stopped the combination, and put it back to a 19t/4300 only class. (The 4300 Should be the faster of the two, but some of the guys had really good 19t setups...and most are still searching for their PERFECT 4300 setup)
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Old 05-23-2007, 09:15 PM   #75
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Default Bigger Issues Looming other than sponsorship slushfunds....

I have been involved in r/c on and off for 30 years and started with electric and switched to nitro and have now reverted back to electric. I took a 10 year sabatical from racing (got married, had a son things were a little hectic) and returned to racing in 2003. After buying my kit and building it and practicing with it (losi 2wd buggy) I decided to go to my local track to try it out only problem was that my local track is now 70 miles away OOPS!. Being a diehard I went anyway and was even more shocked to find 12 people on site. When I think back to the early 80s through early 90s if you didnt show up early you wouldnt get a decent pit bench because of the numbers that showed up. When my son saw me buy the buggy at close to $1000 he nearly fell over he was amazed that an rc car could cost that much. I assured him it would be worth every cent. Needless to say my 11 year old and his friends are all into xbox, PS2, Wii etc etc. So for the week that I spent building the kit my son and his friends would come by to see how things were going but would find it amusing that I was playing with my "toy" car and spent endless hours joshing me about it. When I finished the kit and had an oppourtunity to do some basic setup and break in an 11turn motor I called my son and his buddies outside and basically thrashed the buggy for 3 batts on gravel tarmac and grass. To say that the kids were impressed was an understatement I couldnt stop them from fighting each other to have a go. As of today 4 of the 5 children present now own rc cars or trucks including my son and they enjoy bashing and racing equally.

The point is this.....................If rc is going to go anywhere it has to be done from the grass roots period. When I was 6 I got my first reall rc car (tamiya holiday bug) and I grew up with the sport and through today I have at least $10-$15k of rc cars, trucks, helis and boats in my garage (including their own craftsman tool chest and workbench )

R/c in my opinion has declined enormously in the last 20 years and unless you can do something to drag these kids from their game consoles you will be lost in the "noise" of everything else that just washes by them. You need to get out there and show them what s there, none of these kids read rc car mags so unless you put it IN THEIR FACE they wont even know it exists.

Last but not least, and this is dead true, you can ask mom and dad...........

What made me want an r/c car when I was 6??? I was at the mall with my mom and in the middle of the mall was an open space probably about 60x40 with a makeshift rc track and there were about 7 or 8 guys demo racing around the track from 10am until 6pm and I was amazed at how fast these things were and I refused to leave until it was all over,it was in my young and naive mind the best thing since sliced bread. So from March until May 2nd, my birthday, I wouldnt let up on my parents, I had to have a 1/10 scale rc car and come my birthday guess what I got my first rc car and havent looked back since.

If you want to spend ur $$$s get out there and put it out there to the public. I have been to one major event in 1987, I will probably never be a sponsored driver or race at a national event but I enjoy my club racing and would love the chance to go to a regional event. My kid and his friends all want to race but dont want to travel 70 miles to the "local" track so unless you can stimulate a grass roots movement in the r/c world you wont have to worry about sponsoring major events because there simply wont be a big enough number of joe shmos like me buying your products to support your business in the long run.

Old cronies like me (36) are essentially maintaining what little interest there is left in this hobby its up to you guys to do something about it. So get out there and DO IT!!!

It was meant to be my 2cents but you got a buck instead, i'll bill you later
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