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Old 05-16-2007, 10:24 AM   #121
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I concede that Lipos are better and just as safe as NiMh as they are now which is not what I thought 6 months or a year ago. I would like to see more santioning bodies to legalize lipos (like RC Pro) possibly for some outside events or exibitions to get it started.

But I'm not an electrical engineer so I don't know what might happen if/when manufacturers and matchers start exceeding generally accepted standards in an attempt to get a performanace edge over their competitors. (isnt that why the current NiMh cells of today arent as safe as the ones from 5 years ago?) It's the unintended consequences that I cant forsee that prevent me going into RC forums and start demanding that they be legalized.

Lastly, I really enjoy a good debate. Even though I've reached a different conclusion than some of you, I've learned something. But, I regret that it always ends up as a condescending pissing match. After reviewing some of the post I've even got caught it in too.

For that, I aphologize.
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Old 05-16-2007, 10:29 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leodis
Legalize it - don't criticize it
Legalize it and i will advertise it

Some call it lithium polymer
Some call it li-po
Some call it dangerous
Some of them call it the future

Legalize it - don't criticize it
Legalize it and i will advertise it

Plane guys use it
And nitro drivers too
Legalize it, yeah, yeah
That's the best thing you can do
On-road uses it
Boat guys use it
Even 1/10 off-road too

Legalize it - don't criticize it
Legalize it and i will advertise it

It's good for IR
It's good for run times
Good for less maintenance
Even good for the wallet

Legalize it - don't criticize it
Legalize it and i will advertise it

(Many apologies to Peter Tosh)

Hello, not a major racer, just a basher as the term goes, no electric racing where I live. But since the evolution of decent Lipo pacKs(high C rating) and brushless came out, I started bashing w/ my 1/10 elecetric cars. I love running for 15 min at time. I believe as long as care is given when charging and discharging (assuring a good pack that will tolerate the average and peak amp draws you are planning to run, balancing before and after a run) are used, they are safe enough to race with. And hence the reason I still have a electric tourer in my rc garauge.

I'm not into battling what is legal and what isn't,... but found this thread interesting enough to go back to the beggining. This post was funny enough to reposts just to give you guys some comic relief.... the debate will prob take a while longer to come around, but just as Brushless is slowly edging in(unfortunately still no sensorless, which I run), I'm sure they will find some room for this technology as well.

Part of the idea is to expose others to the fact that it's not just 2 or three mad scientist going this route... and you don't have to be an engineer to enjoy a 15-20 to even 30min run w/ an electric car or truck anymore. Racing... well depends on your track and a major decision on a national level in the future.

For now I have to stick to my Nitro tourer for racing.

Sorry for the interuption, good debate.... onward, proceed...

havy
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Old 05-16-2007, 10:31 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed237
Lastly, I really enjoy a good debate. Even though I've reached a different conclusion than some of you, I've learned something. But, I regret that it always ends up as a condescending pissing match. After reviewing some of the post I've even got caught it in too.
You're a gentleman. This board could use more people that think like you.
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Old 05-16-2007, 01:22 PM   #124
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Our club is having a debate about allowing LIPO. There is some resistance - but its somewhat formed based on opinions that were forged by reading the various threads on this forum.

I think LIPO has the potential in attracting more people to the races - and this for me is the #1 reason I am pushing for them. The current "plug and play" might go by the way of the dodo birds once they get in mainstream racing, however, as a member owned and operated club, I beleive that we need to take advantage of the PnP period and milk it for what its worth to get new guys hooked to racing.

I've read a lot about LIPO's on this forum and formed some prejudices as a result. Are they the right ones? Probably not. I got myself 2 Orion 3200's and convinced the local 1/10th buggy guys to let me run 'em, and am working in convincing the members of our club to allow them. I like to deal with personal experience when debating - regurgitating other peoples opinions does not move the debate forward.

Some of my RCtech shaped prejudices:

Performance - I think that 90% of club racers won't feel it one way or the other.

Safety - Safe as NiHM, I've gotten T-boned battery side, lauched off the track, countless wall slaps - nothing to report other than broken C-Hubs.

Maintenance - None so far. Charging in advance is great.

Car set-up - Problematic as I need to weight the car so much to meet the rules. Lead is not feasible - need to get Tungsten.

Joel - Set up the test with the GFX and I'll lend you one of my packs/cut-off for your test. I might look in getting done with a 30A toaster - just gotta figure out the wiring....
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Old 05-16-2007, 01:41 PM   #125
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I think that it's interesting that a large percent of people that bash Lipo, fall into the segment of racers that haven't ever tried them. It's also interesting that everyone that's actually tried them, love them. Hmmm. If people would hold off on the kinky pink or blue aluminum part(junk) of the week, and tried some cool batteries, we'd be getting somewhere.
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Old 05-16-2007, 01:48 PM   #126
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A little off topic, but then again, after seeing that some peoples opinions are based on this forum alone...

There is a good knowledge base for those looking into brushless and lipo use in rc cars from several experienced people on this other forum. My apologies for leading to another forum but for those interested in knowing a little more, if you can get past the who's better threads and focus on what some of these people have done.... you really can learn alot about lipo and brushless cars.

link
*edit* look back to the beggining to find the most interesting stuff
If you already knew, excellent...

havy
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Old 05-16-2007, 02:06 PM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
You're a gentleman. This board could use more people that think like you.



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Old 05-16-2007, 02:09 PM   #128
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We should take heed of what Mr. Black says. There are too many unsupported views on here about quality and safety. Here's some facts...

IATA only approve two makers of LiPo to ship by air. Every other manufacturer has to ship by sea because of safety concerns over LiPo in aircraft. (And before anyone posts it, see the note below. Your LiPo cells are tested and verified before you use them in your cell/iPod, etc. on the 'plane)

Retailers receive bulk shipments of LiPo that arrive with the cells already 'ballooned' because of manufacturing faults - we don't see them.

When new cells have been released in the past, it has always been 'the future' and every time we have ended up with matched being better, performance drop-off early in life, and frequent cell renewals to stay comeptitive. This is already the case in LiPo. As more 'competitive' drivers take up LiPo, it will become like NiMh is now.

I would suggest it be for ROAR Class 1 events only - for the new drivers and the Club races where today's advantages can stay just that, and an expensive development race is unlikely to break out.

Cost never enters into it. RC drivers spend money like water on perceived performance. What is really important is that new drivers see a simple and understandable entry route into our hobby. Buying an RTR with NiMh, and then seeing LiPo all over their Club, is a good way to get people to give up. Convenience, a sense of belonging (they have the same kit as me) and a friendly helpful Club will win over drivers, not making the hobby cheap, varied and confusing.

Most people posting on here are dedicated drivers of RC, so you should do as others advise and get a class set up at your Club. But just read this thread as a new driver, and ask youself if it is making it an inviting hobby to be in, or...
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Old 05-16-2007, 02:22 PM   #129
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Hey Ed, I took it as a debate, nothing further. People around here know I can be a nasty sonofabitch and in this instance, that isnt (albeit rare) one of them. You give valid points as far as safety, but in this time frame, in my opinion, they are a bit dated. Yes, the warning signs should be out there and YES, there is no way to stop some noob with a fat wallet and the attention span of a shrew from buying li-po but remember, those same people can buy nimh, charge them incorrectly and have sub c projectiles. Li-po packs come pre-built, balanced and the technology to assure their safety pretty much lies in charging. As long as they are charged and stored correctly, everything else is easy as 3.14....thats Pi for you mathematically challenged. Syndrome, you don' gone soft!
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Old 05-16-2007, 02:25 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaliberX
Our club is having a debate about allowing LIPO. There is some resistance - but its somewhat formed based on opinions that were forged by reading the various threads on this forum.

I think LIPO has the potential in attracting more people to the races - and this for me is the #1 reason I am pushing for them. The current "plug and play" might go by the way of the dodo birds once they get in mainstream racing, however, as a member owned and operated club, I beleive that we need to take advantage of the PnP period and milk it for what its worth to get new guys hooked to racing.

I've read a lot about LIPO's on this forum and formed some prejudices as a result. Are they the right ones? Probably not. I got myself 2 Orion 3200's and convinced the local 1/10th buggy guys to let me run 'em, and am working in convincing the members of our club to allow them. I like to deal with personal experience when debating - regurgitating other peoples opinions does not move the debate forward.

Some of my RCtech shaped prejudices:

Performance - I think that 90% of club racers won't feel it one way or the other.
You are correct.

Quote:
Safety - Safe as NiHM, I've gotten T-boned battery side, lauched off the track, countless wall slaps - nothing to report other than broken C-Hubs.
NiMh blow up while being charged or if they are shorted. The Latest LiPo cells can be hammered, bent, drilled and they are fine. They are extremely safe to charge when using an common LiPo charger.

I have crashed my Trex450 onto concrete at 50mph denting my LiPo's in the process...they are still flying.

Quote:
Maintenance - None so far. Charging in advance is great.
Repeaking after every run is all ou need to do. If it cold outside get a heating pad and warm the cell up to ~90*F before running for max power.

Quote:
Car set-up - Problematic as I need to weight the car so much to meet the rules. Lead is not feasible - need to get Tungsten.
Until NiMh goes away you will have to add weight to your car to be fair. Once everyone is LiPo the min car weights can get adjusted down to get rid of all the lead.
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Old 05-16-2007, 02:33 PM   #131
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People talking about the latest 4200's vs li-po, yes, you may not feel much of a difference for a kiddie 5 minute race. I run against nitros and 8 minute max run times from nimh wont get it. Li-po gives me laps while they pit for gas. I can make a battery swap with laps to play with and do it comfortably. And if I am hit on the side, I dont have to worry that my soldering skills will determine the outcome of a race. I know the 5 minute "kiddie race" is going to rile the natives, but oh well.
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Old 05-16-2007, 02:46 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bxpitbull
People talking about the latest 4200's vs li-po, yes, you may not feel much of a difference for a kiddie 5 minute race. I run against nitros and 8 minute max run times from nimh wont get it. Li-po gives me laps while they pit for gas. I can make a battery swap with laps to play with and do it comfortably. And if I am hit on the side, I dont have to worry that my soldering skills will determine the outcome of a race. I know the 5 minute "kiddie race" is going to rile the natives, but oh well.
We don't mind as long as we can call you what you are...a basher
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Old 05-16-2007, 02:48 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
We don't mind as long as we can call you what you are...a basher
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Old 05-16-2007, 03:13 PM   #134
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We don't mind as long as we can call you what you are...a basher
FATALITY!
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Old 05-16-2007, 03:37 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
Someone made the comment in here that LiPo should be for bashers. I hear that kind of thing a lot, and if often sounds a little bit condescending. But who are we kidding? Those guys drive the market, and what they do very often trickles down into the racing crowd.
I said I was all for lipos being used for bashing. Appology if it was taken as condescending, but that isn't how it was intended. I fully appreciate that it's the "non-racers" that drive the market. I just see it as a somewhat different market in terms of their requirements.
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