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Old 05-16-2007, 02:55 AM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SWTour
How can a 8.2v battery NOT be faster than a 7.4 volt battery.

My LIPOS charge to 8.38volts, and the "HIT" voltage is right at 8.2

A 6 cell 4200 w/ 1.24volts per cell would only be what...7.44?
You are not cmparing like for like. I dont know the exact numbers but I would say 6 cell 4200s peak around 9v, so for you comparison the Lipo nominal voltage at 7.4 is vary similar to the 4200s nominal in your example.
Strangley though I here a lot use the voltage differance as an exscuse not to allow Lipo when in fact moden Nimh cells can be slightly higher than Lipo because they have been pushed so far.
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Old 05-16-2007, 04:18 AM   #107
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Old 05-16-2007, 04:32 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by syndr0me
These batteries power our phones, computers, cars, R/C airplanes/helicopters, iPods, power tools, garden tools, just to name a few. They are the battery of the world. Saying they don't belong in R/C cars is silly.
I should shoot "silly" straight back at you, but that's not how I play. We're not racing phones, computers planes/helis, iPods, power tools (well...there's those nutjobs racing belt sanders, but they're plugged in) or garden tools. We ARE, however, RACING our RC cars, and where ever there's an advantage to be had, be it real or marketing hype, that advantage will be sought out and it will be (willingly) paid for. Our history proves that to be fact. Racers have no self-control when it comes to spending money for what may only be a PERCEIVED advantage, be it RC or Formula 1.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
What you will find is that all quality lipo cells of any given brand are the same. They are far different than NiMh in this respect. The manufacturing of LiPo allows for an extremely consistant product. I learned this today from Shawn Palmer the new Schuey Sales Manager and former Castle Creations Marketing manager.

You can cycle 10 Orion Platinum 4800 packs and get the same numbers out of all of them.
I guess I haven't seen any hard numbers produced by any of these folks that would support this "fact". It may well be true, but if you look at our nimh batteries THEY'RE remarkably consistent too. They're pretty much all within a few thousandths of a volt from each other, elite racer pack down to stick-pack bashers. I haven't seen anyone selling lipos offering any numbers really, other than mah and some often VERY spurious C-ratings which has been their area of competition to this point for the airborne crowd.

How 'bout some hard data from, say, Orion and not just a claim from "some guy" about getting "the same numbers out of all of them"?
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Old 05-16-2007, 04:37 AM   #109
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Originally Posted by Leodis
I don't blame you for thinking that way if you experienced the switch from nicad to nimh, but lipos are a completely different animal and the only "voodoo" you can possibly do to them is charge them at 110% and that hasn't even been proven to be helpful yet. There will always be battery wars, but lipos won't suddenly become less easy to use once everyone starts using them.



Lipos aren't about going faster. IB4200's are actually faster during 5 minute races in most applications. Believe me, if my lipo took a second or two off my lap times, I'd let you know. For me, it's about being able to buy one battery that will allow me to be competitive for YEARS instead of buying 3 batteries 2 - 3 times per year.



Yeah, the comments will go from 300+ cycles with no drop in performance to 400+ cycles with no drop in performance because we will have had more time to run them. I hope you were just joking because that statement is completely illogical. Lipos won't all of a sudden become less durable once more people start using them.

I truely hope your right. I personally and feeling positive about the lipos, but im also a realist that relizes that the simplicity we have now will likly not stay that way once nihms have gone the way of the nicad. At that point im sure all the race rituals we do will return perhaps in different tools and processes. We can agree to disagree on the voodoo. The voodoo we can discuss 5 years from now...

For our club this fall we are only allowing "HARD CASED" lipos no tinfoil rapped packs... This will ensure proper safty for anyone the is scared or missinformed about lipos.

On another topic. And perhaps tied to voodoo. Right now the manufacuters are not "grading" there packs so far 1000 packs produced equals 1000 equal packs? There are no duds? no sport packs? no factory level packs?..... But maybe once a lipo cycler similar to a turbo charger/matcher comes out where the average discharge voltage can be extracted and the IR we will see matching or similar. Right now the biggest issue is comparing to nihm packs. With nihm your LHS has 10-20 packs of one brand and u pick your numbers... Well im sure technology wont sit idle and simply produce packs taht are all equal. Will trinity produce an equal pack to peak? ECT ECT Right now we need to put to rest the standing voltage comparison and get some real data to compare the two...

I was wondering if a guy with the novak voltage cut off could wire it into a turbo35/gfx to allow for discharge cycle to give a fair side by side comparison cycle with a nihm. Brimg both forms up to full charge and then hook them both up to a GFX with novak cut off inline.

Right now when a new nihm comes out we simply compare numbers but with lipo to lipo there is no comparison and even lipo to nihm we have no way to compare them other then what he said she said and on the track
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Old 05-16-2007, 05:22 AM   #110
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The 300+ cycles is from the manufacturers own claims, they did the testing, not me. Hell, I'll even take 200 cycles before a pack fizzles out, still cheeper in the long run. We trust the manufacuters claims plain and simple.....if joe public found out the claims were'nt true they'd go out of business in a hurry. This is nothing different than trusting Novak when they say the speedo will handle any motor.....Do you test that? Do you test to make sure your getting 30wt shock oil, and not 28.5wt? Come on...
I realize now some peoples minds will never change, thats fine....But,
I agree with Syndrome...If you guys who have no problem buying NiMh's every other month just pick up one orion 3200 and run it for a month and give us your honest results. And Yes, this may require some to educate themselves
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Old 05-16-2007, 06:16 AM   #111
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Not worth it . . .

Last edited by Ed237; 05-16-2007 at 08:00 AM.
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Old 05-16-2007, 08:54 AM   #112
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Scottrik

Do yourself a big favor !

Get a couple Carbon 3200`s, race with them and find out just how wrong your position with Li-Po is ....(yes just two , its all you will need to race and practice , not like the 4 or 5 Nk-Ml packs your use too)

I know your no different from me , after just a race or two you won`t be willing to switch back to Nk-Ml....


Then you too will be same boat as me , no interest in rejoining Roar or events that only support obsolete battery rules....

I saw two experience racer`s yesterday purchase new Orion carbon`s ...

and they are sponsored .....


they too understand its time to move ahead despite the fact Roar has`nt with these rules...

and if this keeps this up , maybe it be Roar
not R/c racing ,that will be hurting soon more than anyone ....
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Old 05-16-2007, 09:08 AM   #113
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[QUOTE=Ed237]Bxpitbull, Betting the house is something thats easier to say than do! If you're wrong and somebody gets seriously hurt by a Lipo cell at a ROAR event they could lose everything in 1 single lawsuit.

Don't forget, this is the country where a woman spilled hot coffee on her leg and won a 3 million dollar verdict against McDonalds.

This is something that is going to have to start in Europe or Japan and then carry over to the States. Sadly, it's far to litigious here for anybody to be taking chances with safety.[/QUOTE

Using your example (albeit, a poor one), then why are there tracks where dudes are smoking in the pits? Even better, charging packs near metal tools, charging at 10 amps (thats begging for an explosion). Using this alone, how about regulating the chargers??? LI-po packs clearly recommend that you charge per the mah and tell you the maximum amperage to charge your cells. Or how about this.....have clear rules in place that tell you just because you can do something, dont??? The good thing about Li-Po packs, unlike Ni-mh, whether you charge at 1 amp or 6 amps, when they are done, they register the same. No need in cramming juice in the pack to ensure they are peaked. And I gave the obvious solution so give up the deed.....charge the night before. Two li-po packs are more than enuf for an entire weekend. For children under well, I dont know what you consider a child, parent supervision. Even though most kids seem smarter than the parents anyways. With all the hoopla, if an adult in this here race game dont know about "the dangers", he is probably too stupid to be breathing anyways! Seriously, more than enough people come to forums, talk to guys they run with, READ, the whole li-po, the big scary booga booga issue, is and should remain DEAD!
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Old 05-16-2007, 09:17 AM   #114
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Let me say this...since Team Orion came out with the 4800, more and more people have gone to Li-Po. With all of the people that seem to have stock in the sub c companies are beating the sub c "drum" into the ground and there have been numerous vids of "li-po fires" on you tube and wherever else, then why hasnt there been a major catastrophe at any track using li-po packs? If they are as "unstable" and "dangerous" as these naysayers suggest, then certainly, there should have been at least ONE mishap at an event somewhere. Bashers abound are running li-po and I know there has to be at least one imbecil out there, so where are the catastrophes? Ed, I hope you have the number to a good real estate agent, because I am coming for your house to collect on that bet!
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Old 05-16-2007, 09:28 AM   #115
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Your roar dues pay for insurance which is probably in place to cover law suits. The reason dumb law suits happen is because the jurors feel that the multi million dollar cooperation can spare a few bucks. You can have it set up so that these people will go in front of a committee and not a jury so that there aren't any stupid cases by having the members sign a piece of paper saying so. Now, since roar seems to like horizon a whole lot the new a123 cells may actually have the best chance to get approved.
The easiest way to create change is to start up something that roar is not involved in. Perhaps create a lipo/brushless series such as the one that has been created on the east coast for 1/10th scale trucks. Perhaps if your local track only abides by roar rules then you could ask them to add an open class.
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Old 05-16-2007, 09:46 AM   #116
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I have seen lipos go up in flame on occasion. They don't blow up though. They do need to be taken care of and you should watch where you store them so that you don't burn down a house. However, they are still a blast to use and not a hazard if you use them properly. Most people I know don't even take them out of their car to charge them. If you guys want the class then go and make it. Personally I am a fan of 20 minute mains and zero maintenance. Lathes and dischargers are for fancy car stands.
If the local track director is scared of lipo fires then try to promote a123 cells. If you run lipo/brushless and plan on running more then 5 minutes then I would advise that you treat your body like a nitro body and use it to keep things cool since the bodies are so tight. If there aren't strict rules at your local track then perhaps an a123 4600 mah 6.6 volt pack would be the way to go. 1k cycles, ultra low resistance, and a charge time of 30 minutes. I'm sure that most people could afford to run 1000 6 minute races on a $100 battery($50 if you break down dewalt packs) and a new set of motor bearings.
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Old 05-16-2007, 10:00 AM   #117
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Here are some things I would like to see happen for Lipo to become legal...

1. a low cost (at the expense of capacity) pack for new novice racer. Right now a novice racer can get a stick pack NiMH battery @1800 mah for $15 dollars. The lowest cost raceable Lipo pack I've seen is $60, that too expensive for beginners - period.

2. I would like to see all the guys that are on the aggresive lipo bandwagon agree on a battery configuration that has the same capacity, voltage and weight for cars that take stick packs, side by side packs, and saddle packs. I've asked the question of which lipo's to make legal in every thread and the question has been ignored.

3. More electronic speed controls with lipo low voltage cutoff as a standard feature. Right now, its just to easy for a novice racer to damage a expensive lipo battery by running it untill it goes below its voltage threshold. Right now, the majority of speed controls don't have this feature, thats not enough.

4. maintain current car weight rules so the manufacturers can take advantage of the lipo weight savings and build beefier cars that are more durable for longer races.
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Old 05-16-2007, 10:01 AM   #118
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Here is some insight:

#1 - ALL LiPo batteries are matched they have to be or they will not perform and quickly fail. Balancing does the same as matching since all LiPo's top out at 4.2v per cell. if you where to create a LiPo pack with un matched cells the pack would quickly fail this is also why you are not supposed to use cells of different lifespan as one older cell may be aged to the point where the cells will not stay matched.

#2 - Lipo batteries do come in different grades and the difference does not make them faster or slower is simply makes them safer or last longer even the cheapest Lipo will top out at 8.4V and be listed niminal 7.4V We choose what we feel is the highest level of LiPo cell in the world Kokam SLPB. Lower grade batteries will have less cycles and be more prone to going out of blance wich will further lesson their cycle life.


#3 - The advantage going forward will not be more voltage but higher C-rating, higher capcities and smaller price and size.
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Old 05-16-2007, 10:14 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottrik
I should shoot "silly" straight back at you, but that's not how I play. We're not racing phones, computers planes/helis, iPods, power tools (well...there's those nutjobs racing belt sanders, but they're plugged in) or garden tools. We ARE, however, RACING our RC cars, and where ever there's an advantage to be had, be it real or marketing hype, that advantage will be sought out and it will be (willingly) paid for. Our history proves that to be fact. Racers have no self-control when it comes to spending money for what may only be a PERCEIVED advantage, be it RC or Formula 1.
I won't argue that. I'll be the first to admit that racing will damage the LiPo utopia we've got now. I would be perfectly content with LiPo being allowed at clubs, but not popular for large races, since that would go a long way to preserve the convenience we have now, without ruining it too much as racers play the numbers game. I do have hope that LiPo's inherent differences will reduce the insanity to some extent, but we really won't know until it happens.

Someone made the comment in here that LiPo should be for bashers. I hear that kind of thing a lot, and if often sounds a little bit condescending. But who are we kidding? Those guys drive the market, and what they do very often trickles down into the racing crowd. Brushless is a good example, as it was popular with the "basher" crowd long before the racing crowd. And look at it now? We're in the last year or two of the brushed era, if that. Everybody is focusing on new brushless systems. Brushed motors are seen by most and old and busted; And they are.

The same is likely going to be true for LiPo. It's been popular with bashers for a long time, and it's now gaining a lot of popularity with club racers as well. As more clubs allow them, more people switch, because quite simply, they're a better, easier, less expensive choice, and that's what people want. The big race crowd can hold out as long as they want, and I hope they do, but battery matchers aren't going to last forever on the slim pickings they get from the few hundred guys that attend big racers, which is all they'll have left before long. And many of those guys are getting their stuff for free anyway, so where's the money going to come from? The NiMH market will dry up as bashers and club racers switch, the big racing crowd be damned.

The market has already spoken. Now, it's just the long road goodbye to your precious GFX's and discharge trays, whether or not you choose to admit it. Sorry it didn't work out. Sell your heavy gear now while people are still willing to buy it.
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Old 05-16-2007, 10:21 AM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrubb
1. a low cost (at the expense of capacity) pack for new novice racer. Right now a novice racer can get a stick pack NiMH battery @1800 mah for $15 dollars. The lowest cost raceable Lipo pack I've seen is $60, that too expensive for beginners - period.
This is partially offset by the fact that a single (or possibly two) LiPo packs is enough to last a novice racer several years, with little change in performance over that time. There are cheaper LiPo available, but they carry a higher risk of spectacular (fire) failure, which is not a good combination for novice racers. Luckily, cheap NiMH cells will probably be around for a long time still, so that will still be an option for those guys getting started. And quality LiPo prices will inevitably come down as more people start buying them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrubb
2. I would like to see all the guys that are on the aggresive lipo bandwagon agree on a battery configuration that has the same capacity, voltage and weight for cars that take stick packs, side by side packs, and saddle packs. I've asked the question of which lipo's to make legal in every thread and the question has been ignored.
This is indeed a hurdle. Though I think Orion's Platinum pack is quickly becoming a standard size. Many new cars are being built with its configuration in mind. Voltage should be the same from all packs due to the nature of LiPo. Capacity shouldn't matter, as unlike NiMH, a pack's capacity doesn't affect its "peak" voltage. It only gives it more run time, which isn't really the issue in 5 minute races.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrubb
3. More electronic speed controls with lipo low voltage cutoff as a standard feature. Right now, its just to easy for a novice racer to damage a expensive lipo battery by running it untill it goes below its voltage threshold. Right now, the majority of speed controls don't have this feature, thats not enough.
Every new ESC from Novak and LRP have this feature, and Novak makes an adapter for this purpose at a very fair price for older ESC's. So, I'd say this problem is already in the process of being resolved, and has a solution available for "legacy" equipment at a minimal cost.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scrubb
4. maintain current car weight rules so the manufacturers can take advantage of the lipo weight savings and build beefier cars that are more durable for longer races.
That's a great idea. Although a lighter car may be less prone to breaking, and won't wear out parts/tires as quickly.
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