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Old 05-15-2007, 08:11 PM   #91
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Even strict ROAR tracks can run LiPo batts. Club races are considered "Level 1" races. At club races the race director has the authority to either follow, set aside or ammend ROAR rule in order to better suit his local racers needs.

The ROAR rules do not get strictly enforced until you get to the Regional level and higher (Level 3+ races). However, even at these races if racers want a special class they can ask the ExCom to give them a special dispensation to allow an exibition class or open up the rules for a general racing class.

Everything is in place to get you what you all want. Someone just needs to do something other than complain here on RCTech. Get a few buddies together and tell you race director what you want to do. Around where I race if you get 5 or more guys...you have a class.
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Old 05-15-2007, 09:18 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by POUNDITRACING
I don't have any lipos because I can't use them at any of the big races that I go to. I race 3 times a week. There aer a couple of people that have them and when we run stock it is very discouraging to get killed when they race. I have a power sponsor and have great equpitment but it is still not fair.
Whoa whoa whoa...what happened to "there's no difference" and even "good nimh are better than lipos"? What I'm seeing is another "it's new, it's faster, it's what we must have right now"

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Originally Posted by gotpez
Edit... Too quick on the draw. Thought this was another post about ROAR not being necessary. I think I'm actually agreeing with you!
Yeah, I think we're in agreement. I absolutely think someone LIKE ROAR is necessary, whether it's actually ROAR or not. I don't see anyone rushing to fill their shoes, so I guess ROAR it is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbipro
I understand some tracks are allowing lipo's to run, because they are educated. But others are still in the dark, and dont even want to educate themselves simply because if ROAR says its not approved, it must be bad.
It's always entertaining to see people describe others as "uneducated" and/or "in the dark" because they don't happen to agree with the describer's point of view. Kind of like the fellow a few pages back referring to folks who didn't agree with lipos in racing as "haters". Guess what fellas...this is America...adults get to disagree, and everyone's opinion is just as valid as everyone elses. You absolutely have a right to think lipos are the next coming, others absolutely have a right to disagree with that premise.

There's a LOT more to any of this than many care to acknowledge. Is a given track or club serving the interests of their members who travel to larger (not even necessarily ROAR) events if the club starts running lipo? And doing some of lipo and some of nimh only serves to dillute any one track's program. Now instead of a decent field in a given class you cut that up into two classes. That's not a solution for a number of reasons...smaller classes are less fun, and running two half-filled classes takes twice as long on race day than one nice, deep class.

There are more reasons, but I'm guessing you really aren't interested in honest debate. If there are so many people aching to run lipo, buck up. If a half-dozen (better yet, ten of you) at a local club are ready to put your money where your mouth is I'd be amazed if a class wasn't created for you (unless the track is hostage to insurance via ROAR in which case there may be legitimate concern). But I bet you've got few people who SAY they want lipo, and they're sitting pat waiting for someone else to make the call instead of going out and investing in their "case". Just like ROAR is being accused of sitting on the fence by some folks here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbipro
I was forced to open my wallet to by NiMh's, and will probably have to again before the summer is over just to keep up. Ya, some will say no way, but put it this way after about 20 cycles NiMh's are no longer matched. I can practice 2-3 runs, then the heats, and race in the main. I probably easily put 40-50 cycles on these batts before I do replace them, trying so squeeze every bit of life out.
This is another of the many fallacies in RC. Yeah, if you're Mike Blackstock or Barry Baker (or any of the other top 10% drivers) using new batteries a couple times a season is worthwhile. And maybe you're part of that 10%. For the rest of us (the overwhelming majority) you aren't getting what you paid for. Brush one wall and all that money you spent for the last .001 volt (yes, we're so ridiculous now that packs are measured in THOUSANDTHS of a volt, hundredths of an ohm in IR, etc) was money wasted. I'm a pretty middle-of-the-road racer, probably advanced intermediate in terms of driving ability. None of the guys listed above are worrying about me going pro. The 4200WC's that I bought last fall have roughly 40 cycles each now and you know what, I'm still racing tight with the same guys I was racing tight with last fall. Some of 'em have newer batts, some don't. I'd bet dollars-to-donuts that my experience, tempered as it is with a HUGE dose of reality, is FAR more common in RC-land than the doomsday scenarios anecdotally referred to by others. The key is having enough honesty with ones self to recognize that 90%+ of the racers out in RC-land ARE NOT being held back by equipment, they're held back by their driving skill. Or at least not completely deluding ones self as I've watched racers do for 20 years now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hobbipro
My lipo's on the other hand can go 300 cycles without a drop in performance, these puppies can last me probably 2yrs before needing to be replaced
What are you using to objectively measure the performance of these cells? What is their voltage? What is their runtime? What is their IR? If you think these items won't become absolutely critical in the imaginations of racers (and lipo marketers) when lipos become the standard in organized racing you're kidding yourself. "Matched" packs, gotta buy new every month to be competitive, etc will absolutely become the norm. We will not be spending less on batteries. Remember...this ship has sailed MANY times in RC. Nimh was either going to be the salvation of racing or the coming of the antichrist to listen to the debate not all that long ago. Turns out it was neither. Nor will lipo be when we look back on it ten years from now.

Again, I am by no means anti-lipo. I use 'em in my flying vehicles and think they're probably the bee's knees for bashers everywhere. I'm just not convinced they're necessary (or even prudent) for organized racing at this point. I think there are as many problems with them as with nimh, so it really just becomes a matter of swapping one set of problems for another.
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Old 05-15-2007, 09:26 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Everything is in place to get you what you all want. Someone just needs to do something other than complain here on RCTech. Get a few buddies together and tell you race director what you want to do. Around where I race if you get 5 or more guys...you have a class.
Amen Adrian. Someone should poll track owners and club officers how many times they've bent to supposed "everybody wants to try this" pressure only to find that a couple people maybe invest (maybe even a few) and it only served to dillute the program overall.

All you folks who are CONVINCED lipo are the future, BUCK-UP!! Get your equipment purchased and sorted and then go to your track owner or club officers to create your class. Don't sit on the fence like ya'll accuse ROAR of doing, get proactive. YOU make the investment, don't expect others to fight your battle for you.
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Old 05-15-2007, 09:32 PM   #94
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The McDonalds comparison is a valid. A corporate friendly judge did attempt to reduce the verdict but that wasnt the end of it. Hiis decision would have been appealed and she would have likely got close to the full amount. Like most cases, she settled out of court for less than the jury verdict, but definately more than what the judge said.

Its the potential verdict rendered by a jury who know even less than average person that prevents new things like lipos from taking over.

The only reason we can buy and build sub c cells like we do now is because people started doing it 20-40 years ago (just a guess) when things were different and Pintos exploded.

If we were currently using those crappy plastic square NiCad batteries commonly found in RC toys and somebody tried to introduce sub c cells with exposed battery bars to replace them today, there would be just as much controvery and it would probably never happen - no matter how much better they are.

Consequently, we're stuck with sub ce cells because thats whats been accepted for years. It's going to take longer than it should to move to the next thing. I'm not happy about it either but thats how it is.

The market will eventually solve the problem itself: If ROAR is wrong and moves to slow, they'll dissapear like NiMh batteries and be replaced by some other sanctioning body.
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Old 05-15-2007, 09:36 PM   #95
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good post, im not anti lipo, looks like our club will allow them this fall..

But the plug and play hype of these lipos will be short lived once we fast forward and all racers are using them.... Matched lipos and all the voodoo tricks will come soon. i could be wrong, but once u start pushing the limits of gear to go faster.... All of a sudden these 300cylce with no drop in performace comments will change im sure

Once CE comes out with a turbo lipo matcher
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Old 05-15-2007, 10:02 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed237
The McDonalds comparison is a valid.
No, it's a trite comparison that bears no resemblance to the situation at hand when comparing the relative danger and/or liability for using or, allowing for the use of, Lipo batteries versus existing Nimh cells.

If you're going to try and talk like a big person, you need to use better analogies to try and make your point, not just trot out the only one that pops into your head every time you hear the word "lawsuit".
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Old 05-15-2007, 10:56 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Lagace
good post, im not anti lipo, looks like our club will allow them this fall..

But the plug and play hype of these lipos will be short lived once we fast forward and all racers are using them.... Matched lipos and all the voodoo tricks will come soon. i could be wrong, but once u start pushing the limits of gear to go faster.... All of a sudden these 300cylce with no drop in performace comments will change im sure

Once CE comes out with a turbo lipo matcher
What you will find is that all quality lipo cells of any given brand are the same. They are far different than NiMh in this respect. The manufacturing of LiPo allows for an extremely consistant product. I learned this today from Shawn Palmer the new Schuey Sales Manager and former Castle Creations Marketing manager.

You can cycle 10 Orion Platinum 4800 packs and get the same numbers out of all of them.
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Old 05-15-2007, 11:14 PM   #98
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I'm sure we'll see what Joel described as well...I made the same prediction a while back ago...

That being said, I'm pushing LIPO's in OVAL racing on a Fasttrack pace...

Who better to push the envelope of battery limitations that OVAL racing.

We are running them this weekend on the Bicycle Velodrome in Encino CA, and we will be pushing them for 5 minutes with the NOVAK 4300 motor.

We have set up to use the Peak/Orion 3200 sealed case lipos...and I know some of the guys will probably push these Beyond what they are recommended to be pushed...but that should make a good saftey test, performance test, and consistency test too.
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Old 05-15-2007, 11:29 PM   #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Lagace
But the plug and play hype of these lipos will be short lived once we fast forward and all racers are using them.... Matched lipos and all the voodoo tricks will come soon.
I don't blame you for thinking that way if you experienced the switch from nicad to nimh, but lipos are a completely different animal and the only "voodoo" you can possibly do to them is charge them at 110% and that hasn't even been proven to be helpful yet. There will always be battery wars, but lipos won't suddenly become less easy to use once everyone starts using them.

Quote:
i could be wrong, but once u start pushing the limits of gear to go faster....
Lipos aren't about going faster. IB4200's are actually faster during 5 minute races in most applications. Believe me, if my lipo took a second or two off my lap times, I'd let you know. For me, it's about being able to buy one battery that will allow me to be competitive for YEARS instead of buying 3 batteries 2 - 3 times per year.

Quote:
All of a sudden these 300cylce with no drop in performace comments will change im sure
Yeah, the comments will go from 300+ cycles with no drop in performance to 400+ cycles with no drop in performance because we will have had more time to run them. I hope you were just joking because that statement is completely illogical. Lipos won't all of a sudden become less durable once more people start using them.
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Old 05-15-2007, 11:31 PM   #100
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With weight limits in place, I haven't seen any indication that LiPo is faster than a good NiMH pack. If anything, you'll notice that LiPo doesn't fall off as hard in the last couple of minutes, but it's still awfully close, and seems to favor a good NiMH.
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Old 05-15-2007, 11:38 PM   #101
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if the LIPOS aren't faster...it's because guys aren't gearing right with them...

How can a 8.2v battery NOT be faster than a 7.4 volt battery.

My LIPOS charge to 8.38volts, and the "HIT" voltage is right at 8.2

A 6 cell 4200 w/ 1.24volts per cell would only be what...7.44?

I remember WAY back when Trinity was pushing the P170's as being faster than the 1700SCRC's, because the SCRC's had TOO MUCH VOLTAGE

I remember saying "How the HELL can a battery have TOO much voltage? If it's MORE voltage than what you had...you may need to GEAR DOWN to accomodate..or else you are going to pull too much Amperage?"

Same goes for the LIPO vs the NiMh, and the way the lipo discharges so much more evenly...the SPEED Stays instead of curving.
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Old 05-16-2007, 12:36 AM   #102
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Right now, and notice I said "Right Now", LiPo is slower 2 reasons....

1. A LiPo's average voltage at 30A for 5 min is less than that of a good IB4200 pack. Most LiPo pcks average ~7.25v from fully charged to 6v at a 30A discharge. Good IB4200WC cells are over 7.5V average if you cut them off at 6V at 30A.

Because...

2. A LiPo discharge curve is not as flat as a NiMh curve so the closer you are to dumping the less voltage it puts out.

In reality this is only an issue for top mod drivers. Stock and 19T drivers do not run deep enough into the discharge curve to feel a diffrence. Since most club racers are Stock and 19T LiPo really makes sense for them.

Top level Mod racers will continue to run NiMh until LiPo catches up on over all average voltage (in a few months when 30C discharge cell are available)
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Old 05-16-2007, 12:42 AM   #103
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I do notice that the Nihm powerd cars are a bit faster than my lipo powered car during the first minute or so, then it evens up from that point on..and if the Nimh powered drivers do 35 seconds of warm up laps, that gap narrows even more. I'm not sure other than the weight advantages that lipos would make a big difference at the top level of racing competition. But I do see lipos helping with regional race attendance. More people that don't have the $ to spend on several matched Nihm packs and other equipment can still at least participate at the regional level...which may help the hobby/sport overall.

My pocketbook got tired of shelling out $ every three months or so for Nihm packs or replacement cells. Using one lipo pack is much more cost effective, and since batteries (and their support equipment) seem to be the highest ongoing expense of racing electric...it just makes more sense to me. That, and sodering packs and rushing to peak, discharge, match etc. before a heat got tiresome as well. With Lipos I get to work on the car more and enjoy the racing....what a concept

I've shelved my 12th scale because of this ongoing battery expense (building a 10th scale pan car that can handle the Orion 4800 lipo instead).. but I'm considering using a Maxamps 8.4 lipo saddlepack with a silver can motor in a six cell chassis (or I may get a Corally that accepts a 6 cell stick pack..thus the Orion lipo...) and see if it can compete fairly with the 4 cell 19 turn class during club racing... so it's possible that lipos could even be used in 12th scale mod...just motor down......

I don't think Lipo makers will stretch the performance barrier far enough that they reduce the life of the batteries and ease of maintenance....these are the main reasons why lipo manufactures are selling their product in the first place.... if the life cycle and mantenace of lipos fall into the Nimh category, why buy them at all??? (especially if the performace characteristics are similar).


In conclusion, I think lipos sould be allowed in competion, if only to get more participation at regional events and more participation in electric racing in general....with all the matched Nimh packs, matchers, etc... needed for serious electric racing, nitro becomes not that much more expensive when you think about it...
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Old 05-16-2007, 12:56 AM   #104
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For the record, the money saved with LiPo is only one factor. I can afford to buy new NiMH packs, but I choose not to because they're simply not a better choice, especially in club racing. The fact that I've saved money is nice, but I consider it a fringe benefit, and secondary to many of the other benefits, such as consistency, and drastically reduced maintenance.

I challenge anybody that's on the fence, or even holding out to try LiPo for a month of club racing and then report back to us with their results. I would be shocked if anybody willingly went back to NiMH from LiPo, given the choice. These batteries power our phones, computers, cars, R/C airplanes/helicopters, iPods, power tools, garden tools, just to name a few. They are the battery of the world. Saying they don't belong in R/C cars is silly.
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Old 05-16-2007, 01:02 AM   #105
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Adrian,

I agree 100% - and if my understanding of the lipo is correct, it's got a built in regulator keeping the output voltage constant, whereas the nimh doesn't have that...so the nimh would most likely have more punch up front...even though the initial voltage of the lipo looks ever so slightly better...

one of the guys thats been doing alot of testing/racing w/ the 3200 style lipos says it doesn't matter if he charges at home 2 days before a race...or just before he puts his car on the track....the FIRST RUN on a given day always feels flat w/ the LIPO...so these things may like a wakeup...

If that's true and proves to be the case...everyone will start running them one or two times in practice for sure before they race them...

myself, I bought 3 of the 3200 packs...even though I'm told the same pack can run all day for every race...and I race on a short budget...but I'm really disappointed in the longevity of the 4200s and 3800s and am really hoping this LIPO thing does something different and better.
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