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Old 05-13-2007, 11:27 AM   #31
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My local track isnt roar sanctioned at all. We run .18 in stadium trucks, .32 in buggys, .18s in touring cars lol electric consist of two classes and thats it 19turn and mod, all of the mod guys are brushless. Did i mention we run dirt oval??? lol but when it comes to lipos the owner wont let us run them inside just because of safety the speeds are to fast and the crashes are way to violent. Now outdoors though he lets run them crashes just arent nearly as bad. The last thing the owner wants is two cars to crash then burst into flames and burn the whole place down. You guys wanna see why sanctioning bodies are scared of lipos? Go to you tube and type in LIPO Explosions and just watch.
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Old 05-13-2007, 11:36 AM   #32
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Which new generation cell technology should be legalized...and in what configuration?

What contstraints will be placed to try and control the pace of advancement to avoid the 'battery of the week' in new generation (notice I'm not saying LiPo...since there are already LiMN and other technologies..potentially even non-lithium based technologies that will be coming to market in the near future)...

What size/weight/voltage will these cells be?

When the specs are adopted, what do you do about the companies that were left on the outside looking in?

For those who think LiPo avoids a battery war...you're incorrect....compare LiPo packs from a year or two ago to todays cells. You'll see that the technology has evolved..and will continue to do so.

IMO, it is up to the manufacturers to work with the sanctioning organizations....lobbying them with information regarding what specs are critical in establishing outlines for fair competition.

I agree that this is the direction that things will need to go some day....but I don't believe that it is solely ROAR's fault for not being there yet.
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Old 05-13-2007, 11:43 AM   #33
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Technology will always advance whoever wants to stop development should be stoned. RC has always been a "Testing place" for battery companies to make safer cells.
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Old 05-13-2007, 11:46 AM   #34
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I spoke with a ROAR rep about this a few days ago. So far no LiPo companies have submitted packs and data on their safety and power capabilities.

I would suggest Orion and Dura-Lite contact David Lee of ROAR and get the ball rolling.
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Old 05-13-2007, 11:49 AM   #35
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What that says is simply they don't care about ROAR to submit them. If they are selling packs do they really care if something is legal. Lots of people are running LIPO, will there be people who want LIPO if they have $1,000s invested in their batteries...no. Of course not. But short term and long term understanding of the industry don't go hand in hand.

Same people probably bitched about NIMH over NICAD.
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Old 05-13-2007, 12:15 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekB
Technology will always advance whoever wants to stop development should be stoned. RC has always been a "Testing place" for battery companies to make safer cells.
I think you should say better cells instead of safer cells. At least looking at Intellect. Last year there was one drivers I know who blew up his cell (And i really mean blew up, there were peaces found more than 5 metres away), this was with one of the 1st generations of IB4200's. It were the old HV's. And since the new WC's edition of teh IB4200's. I've already seen 4 cells which exploded in just 1,5 month.
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Old 05-13-2007, 12:15 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisP
For those who think LiPo avoids a battery war...you're incorrect....compare LiPo packs from a year or two ago to todays cells. You'll see that the technology has evolved..and will continue to do so.
You're correct. For people who have lots of disposable income, they can participate in the lipo battery war in the same way that they participate in the NIMH battery war. I'm one of those guys and I have a lot of fun buying all the new stuff.

Here's the difference:

For people who don't have a lot of disposable income, they can enjoy competitive racing for YEARS with just one lipo battery pack instead of buying 3 new NIMH packs 2 - 3 times per year just to be competitive. Do the math.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen people give up on this hobby after they finally figure out how much it really costs to be competitive. Lipo and BL does a good job of mitigating that issue.
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Old 05-13-2007, 12:31 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leodis
You're correct. For people who have lots of disposable income, they can participate in the lipo battery war in the same way that they participate in the NIMH battery war. I'm one of those guys and I have a lot of fun buying all the new stuff.

Here's the difference:

For people who don't have a lot of disposable income, they can enjoy competitive racing for YEARS with just one lipo battery pack instead of buying 3 new NIMH packs 2 - 3 times per year just to be competitive. Do the math.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen people give up on this hobby after they finally figure out how much it really costs to be competitive. Lipo and BL does a good job of mitigating that issue.
Before anyone gets the wrong impression...

I'm not saying that we should not go with newer technology cells...

I am simply stating that what those cells are should be defined somehow, and that the best means for this to happen is for the industry experts to work with the sanctioning bodies to establish that definition...
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Old 05-13-2007, 12:35 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisP
Before anyone gets the wrong impression...

I'm not saying that we should not go with newer technology cells...

I am simply stating that what those cells are should be defined somehow, and that the best means for this to happen is for the industry experts to work with the sanctioning bodies to establish that definition...
I don't think that will be to much of a problem, at least for as far as I know how this goes in Europe. With special meetings of the EFRA every year with manufacturers to talk about the specifications, so every manufacturer knows what he has to do to make sure his product will be homologated 2 months later for use in EFRA (and most other European) races. But I don't know how this is done in the rest of the world.
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Old 05-13-2007, 12:39 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
I spoke with a ROAR rep about this a few days ago. So far no LiPo companies have submitted packs and data on their safety and power capabilities.

I would suggest Orion and Dura-Lite contact David Lee of ROAR and get the ball rolling.
But according to this, the manufacturers are not talking to the sanctioning body in the US......
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Old 05-13-2007, 12:45 PM   #41
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I'm afraid not.. And that is probably a reason that ROAR is a "follower" .. EFRA can say to the manyfacturers what they want. Manyfacturers do this, or contact there suppliers (i.e. contacting IB about the size of the cells). And when they change that, ROAR has to accept this change a lot of times, because it's most of the time the only thing manufacturers have. That's there advantage this time, it doesn't really matter whether you put 5 or 6 cells in a box (at least I think so ) so they could stay with the 6 cell untill they have figured this out more...

But Chris I think we're getting a little off topic here
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Old 05-13-2007, 12:47 PM   #42
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In fact the question hasn't really been answered yet.. But as far as I know, none of the governing bodies has legalised LiPo yet. But this can change very quickly. BL took over Europe in just one season. All you need after it is legalised is one good driver who wins a big race with it and everybody wants it.
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Old 05-13-2007, 01:15 PM   #43
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The thinig is LiPo batts are not as good as top level NiMh cells power wise (Although they will be eventually). They are however 1000x more durable than NiMh and this is way people want them. Mainly for club racing.
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Old 05-13-2007, 01:20 PM   #44
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And that is the reason it's not that important to legalise LiPo's. Looking at clubracers at my local club, they use old 3300 and 3700 batteries. When they want to use LiPo, they need to buy more expensive chargers.
The people who are willing to pay these more expensive chargers, are the ones who buy new batteries every year, now because of the duration but because of the voltage and the capacity... I drive 4200's because of the high voltage, but for the capacity I could still use my old 3700's, because I would still make my driving time.
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Old 05-13-2007, 01:31 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
The thinig is LiPo batts are not as good as top level NiMh cells power wise (Although they will be eventually). They are however 1000x more durable than NiMh and this is way people want them. Mainly for club racing.
Adrian is right. The best thing that could happen is that LiPo gains acceptance as an alternative in club racing, giving the average person an option to do something less rigorous, and less expensive. Combined with brushless, it will remove one of the huge barriers for newcomers in racing, and also offers existing racers with limited time/resources/money a fantastic alternative.

Saying LiPo isn't ready for cars is absurd. Orion's Platinum pack won the R/C Car Action Reader's Choice award. Are you now going to tell all those people that voted they should go back to buying 3-4 matched packs every 6 months? C'mon, I understand there's some haters in the crowd, but lets not be completely ridiculous. Telling everybody to "wait and see" means nothing will ever move forward. Early adopters are what drive the acceptance of new technology, and ultimately, the sanctioning bodies. Telling those people to wait is a stall tactic employed by people that oppose change.

Ultimately, LiPo's problem will be that R/C is full of people that are very set in their ways, and sometimes people that aren't that interested in getting facts, or, just not that smart. It requires some effort to get educated about it, the difference between a cheap Chinese cell and a quality cell, and safety in general. Unfortunately, for a product to get that kind of understanding and consideration in R/C requires many years, thanks largely due to the demographic, and mindset of people in the hobby.
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