Lipo Legalization
05-23-2007, 11:54 AM
#331
Originally Posted by ApexSpeed
I speak for myself here when I say that I believe that the LiPo battery should not create new classes (for the most part) for any scale of racing, but allow electric racers more options and choices for power sources.
05-23-2007, 11:59 AM
#332
The race day is only SO long. If we run 20 minute heats, we run fewer of them OR fewer classes, neither of which is a viable option.
We tried a 15-minute LD (Long Distance) 1/12 class last year on IB3800's with de-tuned stock motors. EASY to make that time with 3800's, bit of a stretch with 3300's, only a couple tenths slower than normal 1/12 stock.
Problem was, nobody was interested in cornering for 15-minutes at a stretch, to say nothing of 20. One reason I got out of Nitro racing was I didn't care for cornering that long. I'm not alone in that.
I think 8-minutes is perfect for 1/12, and I wouldn't mind seeing TC bumped up to 8 minutes (easy in stock even with 3800's, Mod will have to back 'em off a step or two). Realistically, does a longer race make any difference? The fastest guy over 5 minutes is STILL the fastest guy after 20 minutes, other than you're brining even more chance of mechanical failure into the mix.
I have no doubt LiPo is in our future, I just would like to see it for the SUPPOSED simplicity and cost savings (though I doubt either would be the case for long) and maybe the big capacity batteries so one doesn't have to recharge. No interest here at all in LONG heats though. Tried it, didn't like it.
Scottrik
We tried a 15-minute LD (Long Distance) 1/12 class last year on IB3800's with de-tuned stock motors. EASY to make that time with 3800's, bit of a stretch with 3300's, only a couple tenths slower than normal 1/12 stock.
Problem was, nobody was interested in cornering for 15-minutes at a stretch, to say nothing of 20. One reason I got out of Nitro racing was I didn't care for cornering that long. I'm not alone in that.
I think 8-minutes is perfect for 1/12, and I wouldn't mind seeing TC bumped up to 8 minutes (easy in stock even with 3800's, Mod will have to back 'em off a step or two). Realistically, does a longer race make any difference? The fastest guy over 5 minutes is STILL the fastest guy after 20 minutes, other than you're brining even more chance of mechanical failure into the mix.
I have no doubt LiPo is in our future, I just would like to see it for the SUPPOSED simplicity and cost savings (though I doubt either would be the case for long) and maybe the big capacity batteries so one doesn't have to recharge. No interest here at all in LONG heats though. Tried it, didn't like it.
Scottrik
05-23-2007, 12:08 PM
#334
Originally Posted by AdrianM
8 min racing in all electric clases would be cool. The mod guys are fully capable of motoring down or re gearing to make time with 4800mah LiPo's.
Seems like a VERY reasonable race time to me. I like that line of thought...
05-23-2007, 12:13 PM
#335
Totally agree ...
In off-road modified , Li-Po battery`s like the Orion Carbon 3200 should be allowed as battery`s of this type does not present any conflicts with that class....
Combining both battery`s only helps racing by not dividing us into smaller and smaller class`s....
Trcr, my club, has no problems with the blending of these battery`s...
Racer`s here fully accept li-Po as the way things will become very soon ...
To think !
even with
All these rules !!!
Will not at all stop me from enjoying racing with my Carbon`s...
In off-road modified , Li-Po battery`s like the Orion Carbon 3200 should be allowed as battery`s of this type does not present any conflicts with that class....
Combining both battery`s only helps racing by not dividing us into smaller and smaller class`s....
Trcr, my club, has no problems with the blending of these battery`s...
Racer`s here fully accept li-Po as the way things will become very soon ...
To think !
even with
All these rules !!!
Will not at all stop me from enjoying racing with my Carbon`s...
05-23-2007, 12:21 PM
#336
Originally Posted by ApexSpeed
That's just me... I could be completely wrong.
Huge amounts of run time is important to bashers, and people trying to hang with nitro. And it's great for that, because there are already packs available with massive capacity the make this a reality.
For the racing crowd, we just need to make 5 minutes with as much voltage as possible. Orion gets that, and it's seemingly the market they're after. The bashers have all kinds of choices, though none seem to offer the safety and cycle life of Orion's packs.
John Stranahan's thread has made it pretty obvious that the benefits of the Kokam cells come at the expense of voltage, which will make things interesting, and possibly painful if LiPo finds its way into mainstream racing. We really need rules in place that define exactly what cells are allowed for organized racing. The "Wild West" of LiPo could be more confusing than NiMH has ever been with all the options out there.
We also NEED a standard size for these packs so future car designs can accommodate them. The size of the Orion Platinum pack seems as good as any, and apparently Schumacher and Losi agree.
05-23-2007, 12:23 PM
#337
This is how I feel about longer heats/mains:
When I'm racing on a nitro oriented track with my BL+Lipo truck and I have to corner marshall for their 20 minute mains, I want to race in a 20 minute main too. It's only fair and it also shows the nitro guys that we can run the same length mains without making pit stops.
When I'm racing at an indoor track made for electric off-road, I'd like to see 6 - 8 minute heats with 10 - 12 minute mains.
IMO, 6 minutes is too short and 20 minutes is too long. The ROAR nats exhibition main should be based on how much run time the Orion guys can get out of one 4800 pack on that sandpaper track in Albuquerque. Dawn already said that nothing was set in stone so I think it's only fair that the Orion 4800, the pack that made lipo for rc cars very popular, should be the standard for this first exhibition race.
(Before I get flamed, I own an 8000 pack too. I just think Orion deserves to have their 4800 be the standard for this first race. Or maybe it's because my contact lenses feel like they're about to fall out of my eyes after a 20 minute main.)
When I'm racing on a nitro oriented track with my BL+Lipo truck and I have to corner marshall for their 20 minute mains, I want to race in a 20 minute main too. It's only fair and it also shows the nitro guys that we can run the same length mains without making pit stops.
When I'm racing at an indoor track made for electric off-road, I'd like to see 6 - 8 minute heats with 10 - 12 minute mains.
IMO, 6 minutes is too short and 20 minutes is too long. The ROAR nats exhibition main should be based on how much run time the Orion guys can get out of one 4800 pack on that sandpaper track in Albuquerque. Dawn already said that nothing was set in stone so I think it's only fair that the Orion 4800, the pack that made lipo for rc cars very popular, should be the standard for this first exhibition race.
(Before I get flamed, I own an 8000 pack too. I just think Orion deserves to have their 4800 be the standard for this first race. Or maybe it's because my contact lenses feel like they're about to fall out of my eyes after a 20 minute main.
)
05-23-2007, 12:24 PM
#339
Originally Posted by Scottrik
No interest here at all in LONG heats though. Tried it, didn't like it.
Scottrik
Scottrik
At Trcr they have experimented a whole lot with longer race events ...
At first it was way cool for a week or so .
The club would put it to a vote each club race and that decided what we would do ...
Yet, after a while....
Racers quickly started to revert and voted down longer events ....
Still,Trcr does enjoy extended main`s on occasion, they recognize it does have its place in making racing more fun....
05-23-2007, 01:03 PM
#340
I would be okay racing nimh and/or lipo for 8 minute races. Provided the lipo vehicles all have Lipo low-voltage cutoff devices (no sense in anybody accidentaly ruining an expensive lipo pack). All three classes, 2wd, 4wd, and truck classes, with novice, stock, 19 turn and modified can make 8 minutes - I think that is a good race length.
05-23-2007, 01:20 PM
#341
I don't know about John Stranahan's testing but I have been flying Kokam, Thunder Power and FlightPower batteries for 5 years and Kokam's are the most powerful LiPo PERIOD! In fact all the other lipo manufactuers are in a race to hit Kokam's pwerormance milestones for Discharge rating, internal resistance and safety.
05-23-2007, 01:47 PM
#342
...be careful what you ask for when you ask for 'longer' racing.
Remember that TIME is the issue. If you double the length of each qualifier and have 12-15 heats per round you have to figure (I'll use 4 minute heats @ 4 minutes) adding 2 minutes between heats with 15 heats you are looking at 90 minutes (1 1/2 hours) per round.
Step that up to 8 minutes, plus the 2 minutes between heats, now you have 150 minute (2 1/2 hours) per round minimum.
So if your program runs 3 quals and mains you've added 3-4 extra hours to the days program....or else you will lose a qualifier and the track will only run 2 qualifiers. (Remember, if you add 3-4 hours to a program also, it drops the $$$ Per Hour a track is making off an event...and some are very concerned with this issue)
Remember that TIME is the issue. If you double the length of each qualifier and have 12-15 heats per round you have to figure (I'll use 4 minute heats @ 4 minutes) adding 2 minutes between heats with 15 heats you are looking at 90 minutes (1 1/2 hours) per round.
Step that up to 8 minutes, plus the 2 minutes between heats, now you have 150 minute (2 1/2 hours) per round minimum.
So if your program runs 3 quals and mains you've added 3-4 extra hours to the days program....or else you will lose a qualifier and the track will only run 2 qualifiers. (Remember, if you add 3-4 hours to a program also, it drops the $$$ Per Hour a track is making off an event...and some are very concerned with this issue)
05-23-2007, 01:51 PM
#343
the other issue is tires.. some tires are only good for so many runs.. double the run time, double the tires.. these guys that run 20 minute offroad mains... thats a set of tires just for the mains depending on the tire... too rich for my blood.. plus it just puts more emphasis on higher quality or newer equipment which i am hoping some of this new tech will eliminate..
05-23-2007, 02:08 PM
#344
...and I'll be the first to tell you, I love LONGER races..and ENDURO type racing...
I usually cut qualifying to really short races (2 minutes or less) when I'm going to do Enduro type mains. This keeps the program to about the same time frame...and Qualifying is just that...it's ONLY real purpose is to assign your MAIN starting position....and to give you some track time.
For OVAL racing, I actually like changing from a TIMED format to a # of LAPS format. (Say 4 lap single car qualifying, and 15 or 20 lap HEAT races w/ a 75-100 lap main event.)
I usually cut qualifying to really short races (2 minutes or less) when I'm going to do Enduro type mains. This keeps the program to about the same time frame...and Qualifying is just that...it's ONLY real purpose is to assign your MAIN starting position....and to give you some track time.
For OVAL racing, I actually like changing from a TIMED format to a # of LAPS format. (Say 4 lap single car qualifying, and 15 or 20 lap HEAT races w/ a 75-100 lap main event.)
05-23-2007, 02:12 PM
#345
Sounds like 8 minute heats and mains is a very reasonable, agreeable race length for future racing. I don't think I have seen anything that anyone could ever agree on in this thread, but that one seems to be really close.
As for race times, if race directors and organizations would clean up their program a bit, it wouldn't be an issue. Too many tracks have 4-6 car heats and run such relaxed race days, that it wouldn't be a real problem to step it up and make it work. If you reduced the amount of classes for everyone to pick and choose from, as well, you could eliminate a lot of delays and slow downs from a race day.
With widespead DSM and AMB PT usage, you could easily increase car counts in heats and mains now to alleviate other issues with longer race times—to a point.
But those are other discussions for a later date... one thing at a time.
doug
As for race times, if race directors and organizations would clean up their program a bit, it wouldn't be an issue. Too many tracks have 4-6 car heats and run such relaxed race days, that it wouldn't be a real problem to step it up and make it work. If you reduced the amount of classes for everyone to pick and choose from, as well, you could eliminate a lot of delays and slow downs from a race day.
With widespead DSM and AMB PT usage, you could easily increase car counts in heats and mains now to alleviate other issues with longer race times—to a point.
But those are other discussions for a later date... one thing at a time.
doug
