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Old 04-23-2007, 02:36 PM   #31
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Oh I think we are confused. Someone said they analyzed it and it is a 23 cent (USD cents not percent) different to do the bearings by Trinity. If it changes hands 5 times it would be

((((.23 * 1.05) * 1.05) * 1.05) * 1.05) * 1.05 = $.29

Even if every person that touched it did a 50% markup it only raises the price to $1.75
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:49 PM   #32
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i think his point was that they didn't want to put bearing in the motors... if it coast $10 more why is only a couple dollars more to get a 19t.... see what i mean...
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:57 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by or8ital
Oh I think we are confused. Someone said they analyzed it and it is a 23 cent (USD cents not percent) different to do the bearings by Trinity. If it changes hands 5 times it would be

((((.23 * 1.05) * 1.05) * 1.05) * 1.05) * 1.05 = $.29

Even if every person that touched it did a 50% markup it only raises the price to $1.75
No you have it wrong. You have to show the difference that $.23 has as a percentage of cost of manufacturing. Okay, hypothetically a motor cost $10 to manufacture. That $.23 increase now makes that same motor $10.23 to manufacture. That's an increase of about 2.3% in manufacturing. Now if you keep the same profit margin based on each price as it changes hands in percentage along the way, and it touches hands five times then a $10 is now $44.83 (based on 35% margins) and the $10.23 motor is now $45.86 which is a difference of $1.03. Now I'm not sure what the costs of manufacturing or the margins are either, and I'm sure the margins are different between cost of manuf. and wholesale, distributors, retailers, oem program, etc.
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:59 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by edseb
No you have it wrong. You have to show the difference that $.23 has as a percentage of cost of manufacturing. Okay, hypothetically a motor cost $10 to manufacture. That $.23 increase now makes that same motor $10.23 to manufacture. That's an increase of about 2.3% in manufacturing. Now if you keep the same profit margin based on each price as it changes hands in percentage along the way, and it touches hands five times then a $10 is now $44.83 (based on 35% margins) and the $10.23 motor is now $45.86 which is a difference of $1.03. Now I'm not sure what the costs of manufacturing or the margins are either, and I'm sure the margins are different between cost of manuf. and wholesale, distributors, retailers, oem program, etc.
Oops, you have it right with 50%.
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Old 04-23-2007, 03:00 PM   #35
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Why is this an issue? Bearing do nothing for the speed of a stock motor or its durability. If you don't believe me dyno your motor, tap out your bushings and replace them with bearings and dyno your motor again...see for yourself.

If you race a ton your comm will be worn out before you bushings are worn out.If you are wearing out bushings before your comm is too small to run you are doing something seriously wrong.

If you race sedan with them chances are you will kill the magnets in the can before your comm is worn out.

Ball bearings serve no purpose in a stock motor.
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Old 04-23-2007, 03:03 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by AdrianM
Why is this an issue? Bearing do nothing for the speed of a stock motor or its durability. If you don't believe me dyno your motor, tap out your bushings and replace them with bearings and dyno your motor again...see for yourself.

If you race a ton your comm will be worn out before you bushings are worn out.If you are wearing out bushings before your comm is too small to run you are doing something seriously wrong.

If you race sedan with them chances are you will kill the magnets in the can before your comm is worn out.

Ball bearings serve no purpose in a stock motor.
Its not an issue. I was just wondering the history and then we started talking about complex distribution scenarios
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Old 04-23-2007, 03:05 PM   #37
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If I have an old practice motor that has worn bushings I just throw bearings in it for practice so i can still use my old motors, becides that there is no real improvement becides durability
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Old 04-23-2007, 03:07 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by or8ital
Its not an issue. I was just wondering the history and then we started talking about complex distribution scenarios
Agreed, not an issue for performance.
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Old 04-23-2007, 04:25 PM   #39
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I'm not trying to argue either way. I've never dyno'ed a motor with bearings or even ran a stock motor with bearings. However, if it doesn't make a difference in performance, then why do we tech for it? Seems kinda pointless to check for a cheat that doesn't improve performance.
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Old 04-23-2007, 04:38 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AdrianM
Why is this an issue? Bearing do nothing for the speed of a stock motor or its durability. If you don't believe me dyno your motor, tap out your bushings and replace them with bearings and dyno your motor again...see for yourself.

If you race a ton your comm will be worn out before you bushings are worn out.If you are wearing out bushings before your comm is too small to run you are doing something seriously wrong.

If you race sedan with them chances are you will kill the magnets in the can before your comm is worn out.

Ball bearings serve no purpose in a stock motor.
So if it makes no performance gaines than why is it against roar rules? And if I polish my bushings does this help performance? I think so. Why wouldnt the results be the same with bearings vs bushings. No Bashing here just a question
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Old 04-23-2007, 07:36 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edseb
I already explained this one, but you have to understand manufacturing. If bushings vs. bearings increases $1, then we are talking about quite a significant number in it's affect on percentages. If you add 5% to cost of manufacturing, that's a lot when it trickles down through wholesale, distribution, retail, etc. It isn't just our RC Industry, it's how all manufacturing is, and if anything I would guess that the margins are fairly small compared to other industries of the same volume, so the affect would be large.
Sorry, but I don't buy this argument. I fully understand Bill of Materials cost, and fully burdened costs. The cost delta between bushings and bearings should be minimal in manufacturing volumes, given that the retail cost for Boca bearings are $0.99 each in quantity one. The HobbyTown by me sells the CO27 (non-Pro version) for $32.99 and the Chameleon Pro 19T for $34.99. Thus, if the retail cost (with all of the middleman markups, gross profit, etc) is $2, the real cost delta is minimal.
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Old 04-23-2007, 10:28 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RandyB
So if it makes no performance gaines than why is it against roar rules? And if I polish my bushings does this help performance? I think so. Why wouldnt the results be the same with bearings vs bushings. No Bashing here just a question
Because back the the day when the original rules were written good bearings were a lot more expensive then they are now. Bushings helped keep cost down for racers back then.

Today we know the durability advantage of bearing are useless as stock motor lives are short.

FYI, stock motor lives are so short because of developments in areas of motor design not goverened by the rules.
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Old 04-23-2007, 10:46 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stiltskin
I'm not trying to argue either way. I've never dyno'ed a motor with bearings or even ran a stock motor with bearings. However, if it doesn't make a difference in performance, then why do we tech for it? Seems kinda pointless to check for a cheat that doesn't improve performance.
It improves efficiency.
And less drag off throttle, very minimum difference on the dyno. Adrian is right stock motors have short lives, due to over gearing and running hot, with out a magnet zapper its back to the counter for some new ponies to keep up.
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Old 04-23-2007, 11:23 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by UN4RACING
It improves efficiency.
And less drag off throttle, very minimum difference on the dyno. Adrian is right stock motors have short lives, due to over gearing and running hot, with out a magnet zapper its back to the counter for some new ponies to keep up.

Urban mith...zappers can not save magnets that already been overheated and the zappers are just for the weak minded that think its really working..

True story..
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Old 04-23-2007, 11:32 PM   #45
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when u have 27T and 13.5BL racing together, it's ironic that:

- the class which is officially sanctioned has to run with bushing
- the class which is not sanctioned and fast with sintered rotors, can run with bearings
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