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Old 04-19-2007, 12:46 PM   #1
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Exclamation Question for all Race Directors...BL systems

I was reading a question on the other forum posted by Jake, and I think this a great question for us to discuss here also.

"Race Directors: (Stockton, Speedworld, All-Speed, Nor-Cal, etc ...) I was wondering if you guys had given any thought to what you're going to allow when the new 13.5 and 10.5 motors come out? Will you allow them right away, making those classes open to any motor? Or, will you have some kind of limit, like sticking with the Novak motors only through 2007?

Thanks,

Jake"
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Old 04-19-2007, 01:48 PM   #2
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Jake, you might wanna check out another thread in this forum that taks a lot about the use of the 13.5 alongside brushed stock motors, lots of discussion between racers & race directors in it(just do a search for "13.5 in brushed stock class", should pull it up)....
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Old 04-19-2007, 01:56 PM   #3
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I think he's actually referring to the new 13.5 motors that will be on the market in the next few months. Both LRP and Orion have sensored 13.5 motors with sintered rotors they plan on releasing sometime soon. I intend to try both out of personal curiosity about the performance of each.

If I were a club director, I'd wait and see how they compare before allowing them. There's not really a lot of information about how brushless motors with the same winding and rotor compare across brands. If they end up being faster than Novak's 13.5, I'd have a hard time allowing them. The incumbent (Novak) has done a lot to deserve our loyalty, and a lot of people have invested in these motors due to Novak's massive head start. There's no good reason to obsolete those motors all of a sudden simply because someone released a faster 13.5. Until there are solid rules in place on how to create a brushless "stock" motor, there's not really going to be any way for motor makers to fairly compete against each other with brushless in anything other than mod.
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Old 04-19-2007, 02:06 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
I think he's actually referring to the new 13.5 motors that will be on the market in the next few months. Both LRP and Orion have sensored 13.5 motors with sintered rotors they plan on releasing sometime soon. I intend to try both out of personal curiosity about the performance of each.

If I were a club director, I'd wait and see how they compare before allowing them. There's not really a lot of information about how brushless motors with the same winding and rotor compare across brands. If they end up being faster than Novak's 13.5, I'd have a hard time allowing them. The incumbent (Novak) has done a lot to deserve our loyalty, and a lot of people have invested in these motors due to Novak's massive head start. There's no good reason to obsolete those motors all of a sudden simply because someone released a faster 13.5. Until there are solid rules in place on how to create a brushless "stock" motor, there's not really going to be any way for motor makers to fairly compete against each other with brushless in anything other than mod.
Regardless of the motor type, there are going to continue to be improvements as technology progress. Stock motors become obsolete every couple of years and the same will happen with BL stock motors. To protect a manufacturer when one improves upon it is not fair for the manufacturer, their customers, or the retailer in my opinion.

Team Orion's motor will be faster than Novak's. Otherwise, why bother?
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Old 04-19-2007, 02:29 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
Team Orion's motor will be faster than Novak's. Otherwise, why bother?
Maybe so that they too can sell motors permitted to compete in classes that allow the Novak 13.5 as the standard. If they make a 13.5 faster than the Novak, then why not just make it a 10.5 or a 3.5 for that matter? You'll only be able to use the motor in an unlimited class, or one that is foolish enough to make the only limitation 13.5 turns.
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Old 04-19-2007, 02:46 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
Regardless of the motor type, there are going to continue to be improvements as technology progress. Stock motors become obsolete every couple of years and the same will happen with BL stock motors. To protect a manufacturer when one improves upon it is not fair for the manufacturer, their customers, or the retailer in my opinion.

Team Orion's motor will be faster than Novak's. Otherwise, why bother?
I guess I agree, I just worry that's it's a slippery slope. It seems like the beginning of a battle within the brushless world when the battle of brushless vs. brushed is far from over. All the naysayers will immediately jump on this and parade it around as a reason to further delay the adoption of brushless. It can also hurt the adoption of a mixed 13.5/27T class in the clubs since there's already grumbling about the 13.5 being faster.

I'm all for advancing technology, and I really look forward to trying the Orion and LRP 13.5. Hopefully the motors are close enough that it doesn't matter. If the Orion 13.5 runs like a Novak 10.5, we're going to have to completely revise our expectations and attempts to define brushless classes, which will be a step backward.

We're making a lot of assumptions about the capability and speed of brushless motors based on Novak's motors alone. If other companies come along and completely obliterate those, it's going to change things, and possibly set us back temporarily. There's an extremely interesting battle brewing, and I'm kind of looking forward to it.
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Old 04-19-2007, 02:52 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
Team Orion's motor will be faster than Novak's. Otherwise, why bother?
If the new batch 13.5's are a lot faster than the current 13.5. Many clubs out there might adopt a Novak 13.5 only rule for the stock class. This would be bad for other companies trying to introduce their 13.5 motors into the market. It could be wise for companies to make sure their 13.5 fits "speedwise" into the current 13.5 class. Although a faster 13.5 sounds good, it means nothing if you can't race it at your local club.

There really needs to be some sort of "standards/rules" put into the books that will keep the BL 13.5/10.5 market as even as possible. It will all happen sooner or later. Until then things might be a little touchy.
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Old 04-19-2007, 03:01 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaunMac
If the new batch 13.5's are a lot faster than the current 13.5. Many clubs out there might adopt a Novak 13.5 only rule for the stock class. This would be bad for other companies trying to introduce their 13.5 motors into the market. It could be wise for companies to make sure their 13.5 fits "speedwise" into the current 13.5 class. Although a faster 13.5 sounds good, it means nothing if you can't race it at your local club.

There really needs to be some sort of "standards/rules" put into the books that will keep the BL 13.5/10.5 market as even as possible. It will all happen sooner or later. Until then things might be a little touchy.
While I agree, there's a chance that Novak's motors aren't that fast. I mean, if other companies follow the design rules (once they're ratified), and they're way faster than Novak, whose fault is that? You can't penalize a company for engineering a better motor if it's within the confines of the rules.

The big problem, is the lack of said rules. It's sounding evident that it's possible to build a faster 13.5, especially with no solid rules, or rules that are very loosely interpreted.
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Old 04-19-2007, 03:01 PM   #9
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Too Funny ...

Novak has already upgraded their 13.5 once

and

Its Oki doe ki ?


A lot of bias towards a single manufacture is not going to play ....
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Old 04-19-2007, 03:03 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
Too Funny ...

Novak has already upgraded their 13.5 once

and

Its Oki doe ki ?


A lot of bias towards a single manufacture is not going to play ....
I agree that bias isn't the right path. But, I do think Novak deserves some consideration for being to market SO much earlier than everybody else, and already having such a large install base. Not so much Novak as a company, but their motor design.
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Old 04-19-2007, 03:05 PM   #11
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Stoned,

This will be a play on classes, but - I don't think you can allow B/L motors in a brushed class unless it's modified.

That being said... CREATE a 13.5 class and a 4300/10.5 class.

Then let the STOCK guys run WITH the 13.5, and the 19t run WITH the 10.5's.

Make the B/L class the dominant class, slowly fading out the brushed as time goes by.

Right now, especially as people learn the B/L deal the brushed motors are and will be very competitve...but as more and more guys learn the quirks of the B/L motors...they will just keep running stronger.

I don't know if anyone has taken me up on this yet, but here's something to try.

If on a TC the FDR is a 5.25 with a 10.5/4300, try running a 13.5 in the same car geared up 23% +/- 1%

That should take a 5.25 ratio to something like a 4.03.

See how close that runs to the 4300/10.5 times.

LMK the results.
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Old 04-19-2007, 03:22 PM   #12
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For clarity, I'll try to list the 13.5 motors so people understand what we're getting at here. For the record, this very same issue will apply to 10.5, but I'll exclude that for now since it's superfluous.

Novak
13.5/sintered (Pro)
13.5/bonded (EX)

Peak/Orion
13.5/sintered (Vortex)

LRP/Nosram
13.5/bonded (X11)

GM/Graupner
13.5/sintered (Evo 3)
13.5/bonded (Dr. Speed)

I believe these are the four major 13.5 sensored designs that will be available. I'm not 100% positive, but I believe each is unique, and not someone else's re-branded motor.

Tekin is likely going to offer a sensorless "stock" motor, though it may be the odd man out in the development of a 13.5 class. I imagine it'll get thrown in if it's close.
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Old 04-19-2007, 03:28 PM   #13
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we have the same topic at our club, its a tuff one. If we allow the 13.5 to run in stock an its on par, fine, but as other companies jump in to make a 13.5 again with no real rules or parameters to control speed or advances you could easily move well out of the range of the stock 27tbrushed motor..

With brushed stock motors they are built to the ROAR standard and although there are improvemtns and motors go faster its not 6 to 12month turn over like mod(there is always a new mod motor out) The roar stock rules hold back the manufacures so its not easy to just keep improving on the design when rules hold them back..

Technology goes on and on, yes but this is not mod, its stock. ITs design to keep costs down and motors on a fairly level playing field.

Right now the stock brushless equivilents are not building under any rules that prevent them from making them too fast.
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Old 04-19-2007, 03:53 PM   #14
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How did roar ever manage to create a stock 27 turn standard? Isn't it a similar challenge that is needed for brushless?
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Old 04-19-2007, 04:38 PM   #15
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Default Brushless and Brushed Together."can't we all just get along"

Just to let you guys know,
our club had decided to try and let the brushless stock "similar/equavilant" motors run in our ROAR stock classes on the dirt this season as a trial experiment. I don't know how well this will work and there is a big fight brewing about letting them in on our winter carpet series where its all about the power. Some of our Pan guys just won't here of it. Our big problem is we our just a local club and with 60-70 racers showing up every friday night we just don't have the time for extra classes. We already run 8 classes and in the winter don't get done until 1am. I will try and let you guys know how this works in a month or so after first couple of races. Lets see what happens.
P.S. TEKIN's new motors will be available soon and they have two different stock motors coming out. Stock and PRO Stock.
Thanks Mike
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