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Old 04-21-2007, 08:41 AM   #61
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Originally Posted by Joel Lagace
Your right bill and unfortunatly people on here rather compare them then figuer out how to run them together. And some many ingnore the fact that stock requires a set of rules..

Lets just assume for this discusion 100% of people agreee brushless is better for stock on all levels... ok thats over stop comparing... How do we take todays brushed stock class and allow brushless stocks in that currently are built with no restrictions,guidelines or rules without killing stock and just turning it into mild mod class?
Heres a way? Put the bonded rotor back in the 13.5 and bodda bing bodda boom. Solved.
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Old 04-21-2007, 08:54 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by jiml
If you want to run a spec motor with bearings, why not run 19 turn?

Wether or not 27 turn was meant for beginners depends on who you ask and where they started racing. The club I started with made stock for beginners and when you got good enough you were forced to run modified. The really good racers moved up to expert. However I have spoken to other racers from back then that started elsewhere where everyone ran stock.

Maybe stock isn't for beginners, but it should be.

Why aren't the motor manufacturer's applying what they do to 27 turn motors to 19 turn motors?

For now each track will have to decide for themselves wether or not to allow brushless to run with 27 turn. My track doesn't allow it, but others do. Because of the difference in technology there isn't an easy answer to this.
Back when it was a fixed can stock, that alone would make you move up to an out law stock (36 degree).
Then they opened the can and modified that aspect of it. And boy that was real good for the stock class.
Open can rebuild able stock was formed from people trying to make slow fast.
Rather than going faster by bumping up.
Is it just for beginners? NO. But there is a beginners speed.
And a seasoned racers speed.
Do a speck stock same as the old days. It will be good for the future.
Let the 4300 speed be the advanced stocker. ( Or the so called rebuild able stock.
Funny back in the day we did not need to rebuild we trued from in the can and change the brushes. Why open the can to a speck motor.
In my opinion the 13.5 is to slow to make a stock class out of with the speed were running these days.
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Old 04-21-2007, 09:00 AM   #63
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We are at the forefront.
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Old 04-21-2007, 10:21 AM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UN4RACING
Heres a way? Put the bonded rotor back in the 13.5 and bodda bing bodda boom. Solved.
Precisely, that's what we've been doing at my local track(& mixing them with brushed sotck motors), & it's been working VERY well. The extra heat the bonded rotor generates in the motor make it neccessary to gear more conservatively, which evens out its slight edge in power over brushed, & if you look here at a race with both ontrack, you'll be hard pressed to tell who's running brushless & who's not.....
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Old 04-21-2007, 10:37 AM   #65
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Or just use a 13.5T that comes with the bonded rotor.

Novak's Sport Motors are Extreme

Quote:
Originally Posted by UN4RACING
Heres a way? Put the bonded rotor back in the 13.5 and bodda bing bodda boom. Solved.
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Old 04-21-2007, 12:08 PM   #66
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on the club level none fo this matters, and i'd love to see the percentage of even "top local racres" that even attend major races... i bet it's between o and 5%.. i've been racing since 1988 and have only attended a handful of actual ROAR sanctioned races... as more and more clubs accept brushless motors (as they should), soon there won't be many more brushed ones to worry about..
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Old 04-21-2007, 02:31 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tallyrc
on the club level none fo this matters, and i'd love to see the percentage of even "top local racres" that even attend major races... i bet it's between o and 5%.. i've been racing since 1988 and have only attended a handful of actual ROAR sanctioned races... as more and more clubs accept brushless motors (as they should), soon there won't be many more brushed ones to worry about..
I couldn't agree more that alot of locals don't go to roar races or otherwise but ton do also.alot clubs around here in cleveland haven't done really anything with brushless I think mainly because alot of people here do go to bigger races alot plus if you look at some of the draws at some the bigger races a have alot people going to them and every year so it's something to be considered if you have racers in your club that want to go to something like that. You figure draws at 4 major races this past year now I don't have exact numbers of actual racers but entries

Vegas around 450-500
cleveland around 450-500
snowbirds around 1000
2007 onroad nationals around 300-350 or so

Yeah it might a small part of your local club that goes but it's still alot of people considering that's just carpet and just 4 races and I know some of those races had decent size waiting lists also and have had that every year.So it can't be thrown aside and ignored that you wouldn't be able to run them there.I have doing this for 20 years or so I have seen a ton of changes in roar and the stuff we used in our cars I hope to see 20 more years of stuff also.And I have yet to see a mixture of a class in all that time and I don't think this will be any different.Like I said I am all for brushless I would rather run 100 percent brushless all the time.I don't like to dyno although after awhile you learn what you need to do and a dyno isn't really needed.but with all technology when something new comes out something old dies off what we need is the old stuff to die off not lets run both because they are both available.
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Old 04-21-2007, 04:04 PM   #68
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I have read the last three pages of posts and it really has not been adressed by race dirrectors as the posting was dirrected. All of the conversation / discussion and talk is very good. But not to the point.

What I did in putting together a summer series was to run 13.5 BL and stock brushed motors in the same class. I allowed the brushed motor to run bearings, which Trinity does sell in thier X-Stock. I am also building tuned CO27's that I will have available at the tracks where we race. These will be balance, hand tuned and set up. I have done the same thing this past winter in out stock and 19 turn class, which got more racers closer to the fast guys.

What I did not want was 10 classes with 5 guys in each class. I wanted 3 classes with 20 to 30 in each class. Competition.

I have taken much flack from some racers on both sides, but at the end of the day, we should be having fun, feel like we have a chance to win and be close in competion. I wish they would make a slower brushless like 15.5 that would be 2-3 laps slower and then build the stock class there. Kind of like using a Tamiya silver can!!! And yes I was doing water breakins, 15+ years ago.

What have other rece programs done???
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Old 04-21-2007, 04:38 PM   #69
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how many of those are roar events? grenade, your right, competition is what we all want, but what i want to see also is good fair racing at a pricepoint that attracts people to the hobby and keeps them here.. i think a "spec" brushless class is our best chance at that these days... i also think novak designed the 13.5 around the bonded rotor.. it's problems were well documented particularly in the lower turn motors, and once the sintered rotors were allowed, the R&D was already invested.. i'd be willing to bet that if they had the chance to do it again we'd get a 15.5 motor or so like you said...
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Old 04-21-2007, 05:23 PM   #70
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I've found that even though most racers don't go to big races, they still want to run under ROAR rules in case they do. Also if they know every track runs ROAR rules they know what to expect if they take a trip to a different track.
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:54 PM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
Regardless of the motor type, there are going to continue to be improvements as technology progress. Stock motors become obsolete every couple of years and the same will happen with BL stock motors. To protect a manufacturer when one improves upon it is not fair for the manufacturer, their customers, or the retailer in my opinion.

Team Orion's motor will be faster than Novak's. Otherwise, why bother?
Nothing against new stuff, but...

I think the most fun we had in stock class last year was 7 guys finishing on the same lap in a field of 10. It would be even better with 10 on the same lap. We want fast enough to be on the edge, but not so fast we destroy stuff. 13.5 or 10.5 is about right.

It comes down to this. Many of our local racers want competition - to race each other, not each others' equipment.

And we need to know when we plunk down a bunch of cash on a nice new low-maintenance BL system, it will still be good enough to run all season.

Specs are absolutely required for racing to survive, otherwise we will drive most of our club racers away due to cost and tired of not being able to compete. For this reason we picked a spec (13.5 sintered) for the season. We have experience with it, as does another regional track we know, and we have confidence in the company.

We also did things like spec Orion and Peak 3200/4800 LIPO for the same reason (and for quality reputation of product and company).

I know this perspective is only a slice of the puzzle, but at least in our region, there's a great number of people who seem to be of this same opinion. I'm sure there's a market for them, for a spec motor that's fast enough to satisfy and keeps the competition close.
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Old 04-23-2007, 02:58 PM   #72
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PS

I am not the race director, but in our club the membership sets the rules not the race director. As one one who helped develop and vote in the rules, we determined what our race director allows on race day. In other words, we are the legislative branch, and he (along with the rest of the race committee) is the executive branch.
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