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Old 04-20-2007, 09:11 AM   #31
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I have stayed away from stock just for the fact mixing brushless stock with another brushless stock can end up with a pit box full of 100.00 motors of yesterdays top notch.
Just like the 20 or 30 brushed I gave away when I went brushless lipo.
As for now I'm sticking with the 4300. And some day the future stock equivalents will be there any way.
So what the heck is going on out there.
There gearing the stocks to get as close to that speed as they can, throw in a 4300 and be done.
I really don't understand?
Stock is for beginners. And the 4300 is a great super stock, its not a sand baggers speed and its slow enough for the seasoned racer. Not quite as fast as the track will go for my taste but close enough its a fair equivalent to base advanced stock power ratings on not the 13.5.
Leave the 13.5's for the new guys, the 4300 set ups and gear ratios will work for them.
I really believe if you mix stock brushless they will have to be faster to keep away from the motor of the week chaos.
Or speck the motor and or rotor. And when the slow speed gets old go to the next slow motor. I guess it could be LRP's this week and Novaks next week.

OH:
By the way may read like a flame but its truly not.
I ran stock for 4 years. It took me that long to get confident enough to bump it up a notch and thats how I know the 4300 is a good choice for stock speeds.
Since brushless came a long I cant get enough modified racing going on.
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Old 04-20-2007, 09:13 AM   #32
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Another thing to throw in there if you are going strictly with ROAR rules, none of these motors are even legal for stock. Brushed stocks have bushings, not bearings, so is there an advantage with that? If I have to run against BL motors with bearings should I not be allowed to put bearings in my brushed motor?

We had a little impromto test on our carpet track in that guys were running 13.5 against brushed and it was fine up until they all switched to sintered rotors. There is an advantage with them on the rotor change. They are faster then brushed. I am still up in the air about 4300/10.5 for there are some 19t motors as fast if not faster then these motors. I am not really for the mixing of motors unless they really are the same as the brushed counter part. As was also said before, stock was meant to be a cheap entry level class but with BL that is not so unless you want to factor maintenance cost of a brushed motor into that as well.

I believe we either do seperate classes for stock and BL or just get rid of all the brushed stock motors we now have. I don't see the later part of that last sentence happening anytime soon. There are just too many different variables to look at with this topic and you are not going to please everyone on every situation.
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Old 04-20-2007, 09:22 AM   #33
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Thats not the point at all.... So because i have a lathe we should raise the brushless equivilent to 150$ or more?

I am not arguing the pros and cons of the brush vs brushless. Im all in for brushless stock once the class/rules are created to allow them to be on equal footing with roar stock motors..

Look my club is small it was once huge, we are in the rebuilding stages stock has alway been the main class here... We get new guys in and its 40-50$CND for a stock motor and they go racing, i dont want them or excisting stock racers to come out one day and brushless "equivilents" are legal but blowing the snot out of the brush motors but cost 2times as much....

Again im on board with brushless once there is rules. If i was a mod racer i would not even be on here i would have switch the moment roar legalized them for mod class... But this is much different its stock...
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Old 04-20-2007, 09:30 AM   #34
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Roar isnt going to have rules that allow brushed and brushless to run in the same class. From what Ive heard is they will establish rules for a brushless spec class. That is how it should be. There is no way they can be combined. They are too different. For club racing unfortunately you are stuck with either combining them and having the brushless come out ahead or running seperate smaller classes at least for a few years until brushless becomes the standard.
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Old 04-20-2007, 09:31 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Lagace
Thats not the point at all.... So because i have a lathe we should raise the brushless equivilent to 150$ or more?
I wasn't saying you need to raise the BL price equivalent, what I meant was till you factor in maintenance cost of a brushed, BL does not look that expensive. As I said there are so many variables that you will never make everyone happy.

If you are a beginner trying to get into the hobby, it is really looking like it is not gonna happen if you want to buy all new stuff for the cost of getting into it is no longer cheap. You got your car kit price, battery- be it Lipo or Nimh, Chargers for batteries, then motor cost- brushed you have to think about a lathe and tools needed to work on the motor. BL the cost of a motor and ECS for said motor, I mean this can go on and on and not look that good to a newcomer looking to get into it.

Granted most new people buy used over new, but I just don't see an easy resolution to all of this.
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Old 04-20-2007, 09:40 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Lagace
Thats not the point at all.... So because i have a lathe we should raise the brushless equivilent to 150$ or more?

I am not arguing the pros and cons of the brush vs brushless. Im all in for brushless stock once the class/rules are created to allow them to be on equal footing with roar stock motors..

Look my club is small it was once huge, we are in the rebuilding stages stock has alway been the main class here... We get new guys in and its 40-50$CND for a stock motor and they go racing, i dont want them or excisting stock racers to come out one day and brushless "equivilents" are legal but blowing the snot out of the brush motors but cost 2times as much....

Again im on board with brushless once there is rules. If i was a mod racer i would not even be on here i would have switch the moment roar legalized them for mod class... But this is much different its stock...
Actually I get your point. Race directors should know that when a racer is over gearing and tweaking motors and buying the battery of the month to make a slow motor faster he may be sand bagging?
What strain does that put on the new guy? And the thread is for BL motors not just stock. But you can bet stock will be the fight, and mod will end it.
I'm just trying to state the facts of my brushless experience in an effort to get some on the track experiences out there. Stock is supposed to be about (speck) minimal speed. I believe the day we opened the can to a stock motor we opened a can of worms. I remember when to true a stock motor you had to leave the armature in the can. Wow That was the day of stock.
The future rules will be decided off of threads like this one.
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Old 04-20-2007, 09:48 AM   #37
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i was replying to X1......



And lets drop the issue of stock being for beginers. ITs not, its for cost effective,lower speed racing. The cars dont break as much and dont wear out as much. The speeds are low enough that new and old can enjoy it... Our club only runs stock at this time....

Racing needs rules. And Brushless needs to be defined by the rules. Especially for stock racing... Again if we all raced brushless stock we would still need rules.. Limitations
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Old 04-20-2007, 09:52 AM   #38
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I think the real question is: When will BL 13.5 and 10.5 spec classes make the stock and 19T brushed classes extinct? Unfortunately, I don't think that will happen for at least another 3 - 5 years, but I really don't care because I only race mod. Thank God!

At my local track, the race director recently allowed Novak 13.5's in stock. That made lots of people happy and it made one driver's parents very unhappy. You can't always please everyone so my advice to the race directors would be to please as many people as possible. If your track has a message board, put up a poll about this topic and let the majority rule!

BTW, I've seen the Novak 13.5 BL with sintered rotor up against good brushed stock motors and I'd say the BL has an advantage, but only towards the end of a race. Kind of like lipo...
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Old 04-20-2007, 09:54 AM   #39
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Roar stock was originally intended for being equal speed ....

Did`nt happen, and with Motor tuner stock driver`s, the motor speed gap becomes totally unfair ...

Now stock racing faces its death bed !

it will die if the rules are not placed to equalize the speed ....
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Old 04-20-2007, 09:58 AM   #40
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And lets drop the issue of stock being for beginers. ITs not, its for cost effective,lower speed racing. The cars dont break as much and dont wear out as much. The speeds are low enough that new and old can enjoy it... Our club only runs stock at this time....

Racing needs rules. And Brushless needs to be defined by the rules. Especially for stock racing... Again if we all raced brushless stock we would still need rules.. Limitations[/QUOTE]


Noe you hit the nail on the head!
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Old 04-20-2007, 09:59 AM   #41
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Noe = Now
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Old 04-20-2007, 12:21 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
Should a new brushed stock motor that blows away the rest not be allowed because it is too fast?
Sorry Rick. It is the rules vacuum that creates this very problem. We have no way to know if the motor is built to the same "specs" as the Novak. If we had an "Iron Clad" set of rules to go by and some sort of approval process to work with we would not care.

Right now......we just don't want to ruin the fun we are having right now. BL has brought new and old racers to the track. Should rules for approval be implemented, we would gladly defer to "those that know". Until then....we will aggressively protect our existing classes "parity" and the fun that comes with it. I hope you understand......
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Old 04-20-2007, 12:50 PM   #43
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This thread has floundered a bit into the brushed vs. brushless argument, which is really a separate issue. Suffice it to say, nobody is going back, and new people are moving away from brushed motors all the time. And this talk about brushed being cheaper to get into is false, as we all know. The Novak EX 13.5 system is about $30 more than a good ESC, and it comes with a 13.5 motor. When you factor in the cost of a lathe, brushes, new motors and time, the answer is crystal clear, especially for beginners. The less they know about the misery of brushed motors, the better.

The problem Orion faces is that many classes have been built around Novak's 13.5 -because- they're so even. People want that more than they want a choice in who to buy their motor from. So we're sympathetic to Orion's plight for sure, but ruining the parity we currently enjoy in classes like 13.5 and 10.5 isn't going to come easy. It's been hard enough to get the 13.5 accepted, and there's still a lot of strife surrounding using it with a sintered rotor. Introducing a new, faster 13.5 from a different company is going to be a giant battle, all uphill.

10.5 is in more imminent danger than 13.5. Orion's 10.5 looks like it's going to be released well in advance of their 13.5. No class with motor limits is safe, it's just going to be the same problem at higher speeds. Open mod is the only safe place, except basically nobody but paid pros can properly guide an open mod sedan on carpet, and even they struggle with it sometimes.
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Old 04-20-2007, 01:57 PM   #44
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to say that if so and so company builds a motor that is faster than novaks is great is missing the point.. novak built a motor to NOT be significantly faster than a regular stock on the track.. meaning i'm sure if they tried to make a faster motor they could, but that is not the point... BL need to be restricted by watts and torque.. spec classes don't need faster or more powerful motors all the time, infact, the hobby doesn't need them. we need cheaper more efficient motors with lower maintenance.. it's a spec class not formula1..

syndrome, you nailed it there.. if other companies following novak were to actually produce slower motors, ironically, that may get them more popularity rather than faster motors and help gain acceptance...
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Old 04-20-2007, 02:48 PM   #45
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There's basically two places in racing where the 13.5 is used. In pure 13.5 classes, and in mixed 13.5/27T classes.

For the pure 13.5 classes, right now, you're talking mostly about oval. Those guys live and die by equality between motors, and have had great success basing classes on a single company's motor. The BRL rules even go so far as to break down the part numbers you're allowed to use. Breaking into this group is going to be extremely challenging, especially with a faster motor. And nobody is going to want to run a slower motor. These guys probably aren't going to feel a huge rush to rewrite their rules to allow for other motors when things are working well for them.

In the mixed classes, you're talking about off-road and on-road. There's not much talk of pure 13.5 classes unless you get entire clubs that convert. The only 13.5 on-road class at big races so far has been Novak's event. The big talk here has been how the 13.5 is faster than a 27T, which has caused some backlash, and slowed its acceptance. Where does an even faster 13.5 fit into this picture? We're still very much in a transition period, and there's plenty of resistance from the brushed holdouts.

So, I understand why Orion wouldn't want to make a slower motor, or an even motor, but I'm not sure where a faster one is going to fit in. A slightly slower motor might have a better chance at penetrating the mixed 13.5/27T classes, but there's nothing sexy about making a motor intentionally slower than someone else's.

I don't envy anybody else's position here. Everybody wants a piece of the stock brushless pie, and they're certainly entitled to compete for it, but in this transitional period, it's not clear where they fit in.
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