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Old 04-19-2007, 04:52 PM   #16
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As the 'turns' description does not apply well to brushless I think there should be some of of Wattage limit for classes.
The power ratings of the 'standard' 13.5 are still above an excellent 27t, around 165W, the best tuned 27t I've gotten is around 132W. The sintered 13.5 from Novak is 195W (19t territory).

Where will it end

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Old 04-19-2007, 05:14 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skiddins
As the 'turns' description does not apply well to brushless I think there should be some of of Wattage limit for classes.
The power ratings of the 'standard' 13.5 are still above an excellent 27t, around 165W, the best tuned 27t I've gotten is around 132W. The sintered 13.5 from Novak is 195W (19t territory).

Where will it end

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Wattage doesn't work. Novak's 13.5/sintered has the same wattage rating as their 10.5/bonded. There's no comparison between the two, the 10.5 is significantly faster.
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Old 04-19-2007, 05:26 PM   #18
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The stopwatch tells all. If the new motors are compareable to the existing 13.5 and 10.5 (laptime wise) they should be allowed. This is only after EXTENSIVE track testing.

If (for instance) Rick shows up and hands out one of the new Peak motors and it completely blows away all of the rest....it kind of blows the whole (spec) idea....

I don't think any race director wants that to happen....it would create chaos.
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Old 04-19-2007, 05:57 PM   #19
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Hey Guys,

I think the new BL Stock Motors rules that are pending will address "new" BL Stock motors being legal. Hopefully our sanctioning bodies get these done soon and we can all exhale.

For BL motors it will be like Stock now. The rules will Call out everything and have tight tollerances. This will somewhat ensure that the motors are similar. The rest will be about quality of build and parts. Currently we're all firing of "technically" Legal BL motors, but Legal for the MOd Class rules. These rules are a bit more open due to the simple fact they are for a mod class. Stock needs to be tighter to prevent the "motor of the week" problem.

Watts is only a 3rd of the equation, and it's "just a rating" or a Spec. It's not measured by a standard like most folks think. You have to considere the KV and the KT that is no longer spec'd by anyone.

I can't really comment on the mixing of the classes. There is no way to keep both sides of the argument happy. If it's a big issue that BL "dominates" can any of the tracks consider simply putting gearing rules out? If you run BL, you can take a penalty? I don't know just some thoughts that I've bounced around with some places I've spoken with.
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Old 04-19-2007, 06:40 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advil
The stopwatch tells all. If the new motors are compareable to the existing 13.5 and 10.5 (laptime wise) they should be allowed. This is only after EXTENSIVE track testing.

If (for instance) Rick shows up and hands out one of the new Peak motors and it completely blows away all of the rest....it kind of blows the whole (spec) idea....

This is what has to happen, have one driver try out those motors back to back on the same track, same gearing etc.

If one is majorly faster than the Novak then it shouldn't be allowed to race.


It shall be interesting to see how its implemented though
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Old 04-19-2007, 11:06 PM   #21
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Heres how I see it, with stock equivalent motors.

1. Each facility will have to make it a (this motor) only rule.
Mixing 2 different brands of brushless stock motors wont work just for the the chaos it will endure.
Stock equivalent motors are just to much of a speck motor to mix.
They can just marginaly be mixed with a27t one way or the other.

2. Only allowing brushless motors that are faster than the track will go, will be the only way to mix them. And it may as well be a mild mod class or just mod but thats the only way I see.

If the track has a maximum lap potential of 25 laps, then 2 brushless motors that will only do 24 or just close to 25 wont match up.

But if the motor is matched close to the track potential you will be able to run mixed brushless motors.
This is strictly speaking to my personal testing.
Now set ups and cars and driving skill play a roll as well.
But motor VS. track potential is the key to mixing brushless motors I think?
The stock class is big and the motor that is fastest will win but with out the tunability brushless stock will hurt the stock classes or encourage people to just plan bump up a notch.
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Old 04-20-2007, 08:22 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Advil
The stopwatch tells all. If the new motors are compareable to the existing 13.5 and 10.5 (laptime wise) they should be allowed. This is only after EXTENSIVE track testing.

If (for instance) Rick shows up and hands out one of the new Peak motors and it completely blows away all of the rest....it kind of blows the whole (spec) idea....

I don't think any race director wants that to happen....it would create chaos.
Should a new brushed stock motor that blows away the rest not be allowed because it is too fast?
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Old 04-20-2007, 08:28 AM   #23
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Spot on.

It is impossible to try and create "equivalency" between brushed and brushless motors.

BUT it is madness to insist on just one type of brushless motor in each class.

Say you run a 13.5 class, you should allow any 13.5 motor to run, assuming it meets the construction criteria. If Peak can make a motor that blows away the Novak, well, good for them!

Nobody banned the Monster stock because it blew away the P2K, did they?

It's called progress.
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Old 04-20-2007, 08:30 AM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
Should a new brushed stock motor that blows away the rest not be allowed because it is too fast?
It should be allowed. Brushless however doesnt have a standard spec yet so you gotta go by time. Once there is a spec then all should be fair game. Thats how I (and our track) has looked at it. At $100 a piece we didnt want to get into brushless motor wars. Our race director said for now just Novak and once the Orion comes out he will compare lap times with it and decide if he will allow it.
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Old 04-20-2007, 08:37 AM   #25
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Roar will only set spec`s, that is all...
New improved stock motor`s will continue to march along...

No way stock will ever really be a equal power class like it was intended to be...

Unless
Roar use "power output" as the standard for equalizing the motor`s...

No way ! That will ever happen !
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Old 04-20-2007, 08:48 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by or8ital
It should be allowed. Brushless however doesnt have a standard spec yet so you gotta go by time. Once there is a spec then all should be fair game. Thats how I (and our track) has looked at it. At $100 a piece we didnt want to get into brushless motor wars. Our race director said for now just Novak and once the Orion comes out he will compare lap times with it and decide if he will allow it.
I don't like the establishment of a "too fast" precedent. With this, a track could just as easily disallow a legal motor if they are using speed as a detemining factor for legality.

Stock motor wars will be no different when we are all running BL. My prediction is that it will be worse as there will be more players (manufacturers) involved producing updated motors more often. It is like electric off-road and TC cars. Off-road is pretty stable with only a couple of manufacturers. You see new releases or updates from each mfg every couple of years. In TC, with eight or so manufacturers, new updates and new models come all the time.

On a personal level, I think $100.00 motors have no business in stock class competition.
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Old 04-20-2007, 08:48 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
Should a new brushed stock motor that blows away the rest not be allowed because it is too fast?
Not if it complies with in the ROAR guidelines. Quailty of build new material ect ect can allow a stock motor to go faster but stay within the rules. Currently we dont have stock motor of the week in our club, but with the "brushless stock equivilent" motors they dont follow any restrictions so currently brand xyz can have at it trying to out do each other. So to allow them as legal in peoples stock classes would/could kill the class.

One of my favorite stock motor rules extracted from 3 pages of rules on stock motors is the one below. So to me aside from all the other ways the brushless is not equivelent the main one is price. maximum retail price is one of the only true cost controlling measures in this hobby.. yes joe hot shot buys 5 a week bla bla.... But at least if stock had motor of the week problems at least the sticker price is reasonable....

ROAR:
8.5.3.2 Approved stock motors must be commercially available through hobby distributors and
hobby dealers nationwide for a maximum retail price of $46, including any after market
tuning and preparation.

Untill there is some kind of leash put on brushless via technology restrictions and price restrictions its kind of un fair to current stock motor racers....

Again this is stock not mod, if we where talking mod classes i 100% for the brushless. And they are already ROAR legal for mod classes... but mod is not about cost control or technology control.

IF tomorrow all brushed stock motors where taken off the face of the earth. and all we had was brushless we would still need a stock motor rule. Otherwise a 13.5bl is just a modified motor
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Old 04-20-2007, 08:51 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
On a personal level, I think $100.00 motors have no business in stock class competition.
I agree 100%

Stock is sposed to be entry level and offordable, many of us make a carrier of running stock thats fine, but I personally have stayed away from mod because of the 100$ motors that dont last
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Old 04-20-2007, 09:03 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
I don't like the establishment of a "too fast" precedent. With this, a track could just as easily disallow a legal motor if they are using speed as a detemining factor for legality.

Stock motor wars will be no different when we are all running BL. My prediction is that it will be worse as there will be more players (manufacturers) involved producing updated motors more often. It is like electric off-road and TC cars. Off-road is pretty stable with only a couple of manufacturers. You see new releases or updates from each mfg every couple of years. In TC, with eight or so manufacturers, new updates and new models come all the time.

On a personal level, I think $100.00 motors have no business in stock class competition.
Like I said once there is a spec then I think all are fair game. But there really isnt an established spec right now for stock brushless motors that Im aware of. Also, I dont think brushless motors will be $100 forever. Once we get all these other mfgs making them then we will see the prices come down. Having an established spec will help the price come down as well.
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Old 04-20-2007, 09:11 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Lagace
I agree 100%

Stock is sposed to be entry level and offordable, many of us make a carrier of running stock thats fine, but I personally have stayed away from mod because of the 100$ motors that dont last

And you have less than $100 in motors & the related tune up equipment???
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