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Old 04-17-2007, 07:31 PM   #1
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Default front toe out,Why?

why do racers do a front wheel toe out on their touring car?does this have a handling advantage over a car that has a 0 toe in the front?doesnt this wear out the tires more?sorry for the stupid questions guys.
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Old 04-17-2007, 07:52 PM   #2
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Toe out in front stabilizes the car.

Imagine your on roller skates and you hit a small bump whichkinda throws your weight mostly to one skate:

1) If your skates have toe out, the skate will push outward on it's own and shortly your weight is somewhat balanced between your skates again.

2) If your skates are toed in, your weight was transferred to a turned in skate. You weight on the skate makes it dig in and turn in even harder, which throws your balance even further off. You eat pavement quickly.

3) Your skates are Nuetral.. You appear to have all your weight on one skate and for several seconds you are waving your arms frantically to regain your balance. You may slowly regain it.. or you may slowly topple depending how far out of shape you were. Bottom line, your skates neither helped nor hurt your recovery.


Is toe out less efficient? Absolutely, but it's a trade-off for stability. Most of us are overall much better off trading some speed for stability.

Hope that helped.


ps- and no I don't rollerskate.

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Old 04-17-2007, 07:55 PM   #3
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Toe-out increases steering at corner entry also increases straight line stability(less twichy).
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Old 04-17-2007, 07:59 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markf3x
Toe out in front stabilizes the car.

Imagine your on roller skates and you hit a small bump whichkinda throws your weight mostly to one skate:

1) If your skates have toe out, the skate will push outward on it's own and shortly your weight is somewhat balanced between your skates again.

2) If your skates are toed in, your weight was transferred to a turned in skate. You weight on the skate makes it dig in and turn in even harder, which throws your balance even further off. You eat pavement quickly.

3) Your skates are Nuetral.. You appear to have all your weight on one skate and for several seconds you are waving your arms frantically to regain your balance. You may slowly regain it.. or you may slowly topple depending how far out of shape you were. Bottom line, your skates neither helped nor hurt your recovery.


Is toe out less efficient? Absolutely, but it's a trade-off for stability. Most of us are overall much better off trading some speed for stability.

Hope that helped.


ps- and no I don't rollerskate.

Mark
Skate boarder HUH?
Makes the car less twitchy coming in and out of the apex.
I hear people say less stable in the straights but running foam I really don't notice. And never have.
I did in 12th scale though. Still went with the toe out half a degree.
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Old 04-17-2007, 08:04 PM   #5
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OH and by the way I have tried a lot of set ups and people at my track are always saying they don't see how I can drive it that way.
I'm sure you all have seen some of the pro set ups that make absolutely no sense.
Matter of fact I don't think a pro set up has ever worked for me.
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Old 04-17-2007, 08:47 PM   #6
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Increases turn-in.

Increases drag.

I don't know about its increasing stability though.
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Old 04-17-2007, 08:55 PM   #7
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Toe out decreases straight line stability. Imagine you are going down the straight and a force acts upon your car from right to left (a gust of wind, track banking, another car bumping you). With toe out, it loads the left front tire, which is pointed to the left a half degree, and turns the car to the left, accentuating the force already pushing the car.

With toe in, it loads the left front tire, which is pointed to the right a half degree, and it resists against the force acting upon the car.
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Old 04-17-2007, 09:07 PM   #8
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does anyone race without toe in the front?
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Old 04-17-2007, 10:22 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Smash
Toe out decreases straight line stability. Imagine you are going down the straight and a force acts upon your car from right to left (a gust of wind, track banking, another car bumping you). With toe out, it loads the left front tire, which is pointed to the left a half degree, and turns the car to the left, accentuating the force already pushing the car.

With toe in, it loads the left front tire, which is pointed to the right a half degree, and it resists against the force acting upon the car.
Hey thats a good way to make it understandable.
I ran a lot of down force in the front of my 12th scale and that is most likely why it was so notice able.

And I have ran toe in and the car was to twitchy going into the turn. But good in the straight. 12th scale speaking.
Felt best with about half a degree of toe out.
4 wheel sedan half a degree toe out as well.
The car feels more forgiving. More relaxed feel.
I have ran zero to and it was Ok, but the half toe out was more consistent.
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Old 04-17-2007, 10:29 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by civiceg
does anyone race without toe in the front?

It really depends on the kit.

I used to run an Yokomo SD-SSG with a slight toe in. I used toe-out/toe-in to correct/augment the ackerman settings, but the toe in setting just happened because of my laziness in checking the car.

Play around with your shock springs , shock position, roll center, wheelbase first before messing with the toe-in.
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Old 04-18-2007, 11:15 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rough512
It really depends on the kit.

I used to run an Yokomo SD-SSG with a slight toe in. I used toe-out/toe-in to correct/augment the ackerman settings, but the toe in setting just happened because of my laziness in checking the car.

Play around with your shock springs , shock position, roll center, wheelbase first before messing with the toe-in.

What?....Tow out in the front is your freind ALWAYS...Tow out allows you to come on the straight and let go of the wheel and your car will go down the straght on its own..Trun is better and at exit is smoother and more consistant..

Ackerman ..if you know what it does can help or hurt you..
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Old 04-18-2007, 04:38 PM   #12
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I always run neutral to slight toe in on my TC, the toe in gives stability down the straight and more mid corner steering. I hate the way the car feels with toes out, it feels inconsistent.
The front toe is similar to the rear toe, more toe in more stability.

Toe out will give you good turn in but the car tends to wash out in the middle of the corner.
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Old 04-18-2007, 09:47 PM   #13
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never seen a racer using toe in in the front
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Old 04-18-2007, 10:42 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CAlbrecht
What?....Tow out in the front is your freind ALWAYS....
not always. Remember that anything other than zero toe creates drag. On a high-grip track you might want to to decrease toe-out to decrease drag

The extra drag also increase tire wear and tire heating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CAlbrecht
Tow out allows you to come on the straight and let go of the wheel and your car will go down the straght on its own..
not when you're racing on a bumpy track. For a front-toed-out car to run in a straight line, the load on both left and right front tires must be equal. Bumps will upset that balance and will give you a car that tends to wander on the bumps.
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Old 04-19-2007, 12:05 AM   #15
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I've been using front toe-in for the last month+, but because of this thread I'm going to try front toe-out again. I'm a big fan of smooth and progressive steering, and I have the impression that toe-out gives big initial reaction and sacrifices progression and later corner steer. I'll test it.
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