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Old 04-10-2007, 11:29 AM   #46
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I like the theory behind BL for the maintenance free use and care. I understand this will be better in getting more into the hobby in the sense they will not have to work on motors to be good and can worry more about setup and driving. I personally got rid of my BL system for I did not like the feel of it. We ran a 4300 series at our dirt track and I got the GTB/4300 combo. I tried different settings on the speedo that Steve Weiss suggested but just did not feel right to me. I am not alone in this assessment of feel. There are others here that have it and feel the same way. I guess you can get used to it, but I choose not to and went back to brushed. I love the Novak stuff for I use GTX's and have a couple of GT7's but the BL just does not feel the same to me. I mainly run Stock and 19t so it is not like I was after all out speed like they are in mod.

I post this question to either the Novak crew or Tekin crew, will the BL ever feel like a brushed system or is this just the way it is going to be? What I mean by feel like brushed is the built in drag of a brushed stock and 19t. Plus I don't feel you can roll into throttle as smoothly as you can with brushed. To me it feels like and on/off switch. Maybe I should have kept it and played with it more, but I was discouraged everytime I used it. One other question, do we ever see the size of the speedo getting smaller? I run a GTX in my Type R and it sticks beyond the chassis a little bit. I realize the guys with GTB's and LRP's are putting them on their sides but I would rather have it lyin on it's bottom. It would just seem more stable that way to me.
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:40 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by wyd
The more open the rules are for brushless I think the better for the hobbyshops and race tracks to keep the attendance growing instead of declining like it seems to be in many areas.
I disagree. I think the problem we face in the racing industry is a drastic fragmentation of the rules and classes. It may just be a coincidence or a sign of the times, but as R/C racing has declined in professionalism (lax rules enforcement, no rules, way too many classes, etc), so has the number of racers.

Tighter rules, better race organization, and more cooperation between race organizers/clubs/hobby shops will increase interest in the R/C racing hobby. How this will affect the R/C hobby, I don't know.

100 tracks, all using different rules or variations of rules is not a good thing.
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Old 04-10-2007, 11:46 AM   #48
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Yeti,

That's a simple question but it has a somewhat complicated answer

"That Brushed Feel"... with a very soft bottom end and strong drag are byproducts of the inherent design of a brushed motor: The drag from the magnets and brushes that is constantly there and must be overcome before the motor actually "gets going".

With brushless we don't really have that sort of force to overcome so everything we put into it power wise actually goes into moving the motor in a true linear fashion.

We have been trying to do our best to approximate the brushed feel with different software updates/changes as well as experiments with with motor designs as well.

I think that eventually we're going to end up somewhere in the middle ... where you will have the throttle resolution, accuracy, and reactivity of the brushless but with some of the "comfort" adjustments that will make the systems more forgiving to drive.

But in the end I don't think it behooves us to make it exactly like brushed motors... but the best way to get a brushed motor feel is with a brushed motor...and those have their own problems which are well documented elsewhere.

I think it's going to take some time for everyone to get to this middle ground I was talking about earlier:

The drivers are going to have to get used to a slightly different feel and the manufactures are going to have to sacrifice pure linear throttle resolution, quick power delivery, and efficiency for a more comfortable/desired feel.

At least that's my take on things
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Old 04-10-2007, 12:14 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
I disagree. I think the problem we face in the racing industry is a drastic fragmentation of the rules and classes. It may just be a coincidence or a sign of the times, but as R/C racing has declined in professionalism (lax rules enforcement, no rules, way too many classes, etc), so has the number of racers.

Tighter rules, better race organization, and more cooperation between race organizers/clubs/hobby shops will increase interest in the R/C racing hobby. How this will affect the R/C hobby, I don't know.

100 tracks, all using different rules or variations of rules is not a good thing.
I agree that many of these things are also problems. The solution will not be simple. No one will like all the rules and I imagine we will loose alot of racers over this and also gain some. I guess if we want to race that is just the way it will be for sometime. It took 23 years for it to get to this point and we might need another 23 or more to get it fixed if ever.
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Old 04-10-2007, 12:16 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
I disagree. I think the problem we face in the racing industry is a drastic fragmentation of the rules and classes. It may just be a coincidence or a sign of the times, but as R/C racing has declined in professionalism (lax rules enforcement, no rules, way too many classes, etc), so has the number of racers.

Tighter rules, better race organization, and more cooperation between race organizers/clubs/hobby shops will increase interest in the R/C racing hobby. How this will affect the R/C hobby, I don't know.

100 tracks, all using different rules or variations of rules is not a good thing.
Using the same rules is a good thing, assuming the rules are good. The reason we have so many tracks using diffrent rules, is because the rules right now are not good!

Lets go over an example.......
You own a hobby shop. A person reads on the internet you are going to be having races. They show up to the race and are ready to purchase tires for the race. They ask what class they can run it. After looking at their setup it is not "ROAR approved".

Are you going to....................

A - Tell the person they can not race with that setup and request them to spend another $100 - $200 in order to race today? Any potentially loose a sale and a customer.

B - Find a class they can race in and sell them the tires to race with. Then tell them to comeback for the races nextr week.

If I was a shop owner I'd sure pick B.
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Old 04-10-2007, 12:16 PM   #51
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Steve, just so you understand, I was not making a complaint in the sense I don't like Novak stuff, for I do. I guess it is just something I would have to get used to, but now it won't happen since I no longer own the product. I understand what you mean why the brushed feels the way it does, I am just to used to that feeling I guess. I may give it another try in the future once stock motors are no longer used and BL is the standard. Thanks for your reply and you have been helpful to me in the past as well as Charlie.
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Old 04-10-2007, 12:20 PM   #52
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Why does ROAR require companies to submit a proposal? Why aren't they activley solicitating companies for a sample of their motor, then finding a class for every motor to race in?


Ask youself what the two top reasons are for people not being ROAR legal and you will come up with two answers.

Either

1 - Their motor is not ROAR approved

or

2 - Their batteries are not ROAR approved


Change those two rules and ROAR is 75% fixed.
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Old 04-10-2007, 12:48 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoook
Why does ROAR require companies to submit a proposal? Why aren't they activley solicitating companies for a sample of their motor, then finding a class for every motor to race in?
Expecting ROAR to be an expert in the design of motors and batteries is a pretty hard thing to do. If you want ROAR to solicit the manufacturers to get motors and batteries for approval you're asking a lot. ROAR would need to be an expert in regards to brushed and brushless motors of all types. It may sound easy but it's not. Same thing with batteries.

And what if the motor doesn't fit any of the existing classes? Do we just make new classes for each new type of motor? That's just what we need 10 or so new classes to thin out the ones that are short on racers to start with.

The battery thing is even worse for LiPo's. How many cells? What voltage? Safety standards? Limits on mAh? What to do about 4 cell (12th/oval)? ROAR has been investigating LiPo's and from what I hear, there have been no cells/packs submitted for approval. If I were a LiPo company, I would be trying to work with ROAR to put rules in place that got LiPo approved and gave me an advantage in the industry.
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Old 04-10-2007, 01:42 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoook
Using the same rules is a good thing, assuming the rules are good. The reason we have so many tracks using diffrent rules, is because the rules right now are not good!

Lets go over an example.......
You own a hobby shop. A person reads on the internet you are going to be having races. They show up to the race and are ready to purchase tires for the race. They ask what class they can run it. After looking at their setup it is not "ROAR approved".

Are you going to....................

A - Tell the person they can not race with that setup and request them to spend another $100 - $200 in order to race today? Any potentially loose a sale and a customer.

B - Find a class they can race in and sell them the tires to race with. Then tell them to comeback for the races nextr week.

If I was a shop owner I'd sure pick B.
In this case I would have a class for novices that allow them to race regardless of rules. But expect them to find the class that best suits them and their budget since you can't create new classes for every specification that comes through the door.

Fragmentation is no good. In the case you use as an example. Said driver would look at the track on the internet and see they run races, see the rules, and be prepared to race under those rules. And better yet, if the track used ROAR rules, they could list this on their sites with a link so that any driver could download the rules. And if all tracks used ROAR rules the driver would know that no matter where he raced, he would be in compliance and not worry about what is legal at this track or that track.
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Old 04-10-2007, 01:57 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Weiss
With brushless we don't really have that sort of force to overcome so everything we put into it power wise actually goes into moving the motor in a true linear fashion.
so you guys have achieved every engineers wet dream? 100% efficiency?

sorry, just couldn't resist. i get the point of what you're trying to say...
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Old 04-10-2007, 02:42 PM   #56
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Man oh man, tough crowd in here today
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Old 04-10-2007, 03:40 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered
Expecting ROAR to be an expert in the design of motors and batteries is a pretty hard thing to do. If you want ROAR to solicit the manufacturers to get motors and batteries for approval you're asking a lot. ROAR would need to be an expert in regards to brushed and brushless motors of all types. It may sound easy but it's not. Same thing with batteries.

And what if the motor doesn't fit any of the existing classes? Do we just make new classes for each new type of motor? That's just what we need 10 or so new classes to thin out the ones that are short on racers to start with.

The battery thing is even worse for LiPo's. How many cells? What voltage? Safety standards? Limits on mAh? What to do about 4 cell (12th/oval)? ROAR has been investigating LiPo's and from what I hear, there have been no cells/packs submitted for approval. If I were a LiPo company, I would be trying to work with ROAR to put rules in place that got LiPo approved and gave me an advantage in the industry.
So we should expect people new to the sport to buy outdated equipment just so they can race?
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Old 04-10-2007, 03:49 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
I disagree. I think the problem we face in the racing industry is a drastic fragmentation of the rules and classes. It may just be a coincidence or a sign of the times, but as R/C racing has declined in professionalism (lax rules enforcement, no rules, way too many classes, etc), so has the number of racers.

Tighter rules, better race organization, and more cooperation between race organizers/clubs/hobby shops will increase interest in the R/C racing hobby. How this will affect the R/C hobby, I don't know.

100 tracks, all using different rules or variations of rules is not a good thing.
Too late it`s happening in the UK allready

really bollockeds up by voting racers driving wedges between series & track`s over here & then blaming the market & the enconomy for the rule variations between area`s & tracks
'look in the mirror' you dim wits
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Old 04-10-2007, 03:54 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Hohwart
Fragmentation is no good. .
this alone will drive more racers out or put off racers then the expense of buying the next fast BL system for there car

racers will buy more BL if they know it will be allowed at the next track/club they visit
same as LI-Po ,be more popular here if the rules of engagement are known ,other wise second guessing is just not on
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Old 04-10-2007, 04:55 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by Yeti35
One other question, do we ever see the size of the speedo getting smaller? I run a GTX in my Type R and it sticks beyond the chassis a little bit. I realize the guys with GTB's and LRP's are putting them on their sides but I would rather have it lyin on it's bottom. It would just seem more stable that way to me.
If you're having problems with the size of the brushed speedo in your Type R then I don't think there's much chance of finding a brushless speedo that will fit other than on its side. It's possible to make the speedos smaller than the GTB's and LRP's etc BUT to make them smaller AND reliable is not easy.. but that's not to say it's not possible.. there are always new and better speedos being developed

Regarding the problems of Brushless and LiPo etc fragmenting classes, it's something we're going to have to go through. Technology will always change and develop, things are forever changing in racing. We just have to hope the changes make for better racing with more people competing in the future.
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