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Old 04-09-2007, 03:23 PM   #31
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whats the difference between the 2

i dont know BL motor's to well i just want to know

so i can get the right one for 1/12
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Old 04-09-2007, 03:30 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Novak
Dear Eddie,
I will tell you exactly why I wrote the rules with a Wye wind only. First off I personally never said that a Delta wound brushless motor was faster than a Wye wound brushless motor. I knew from our computer simulations that a Delta wound brushless motor just simply was very inefficient and would not produce the horsepower that an equivalent Wye wound motor would produce. To further investigate this fact we actually built several different motors using this winding technique and tested them on our dyno and as Steve posted you can see from the numbers the Delta wind motor just doesn’t have it. You also have to remember at the time that we wrote these rules the 10 turn brushed motor was the only allowable modified motor allowed it touring car racing. With the brushless rules we wanted to mimic the brushed rules as close as possible believing that they would be more readily accepted. Also with the tech problem for an equivalent 10 turn brushless motor it would simply be easier if we only allowed one type of wind. Seeing that the Delta wind motors were horribly inefficient, and we were trying to sell the low maintenance and higher efficiencies of brushless motors to the existing car customer, we chose Wye. Now if you consider looking out for the average racer by giving them a better product with these rules as a conspiracy theory, than I plead guilty.
Bob Novak

If Delta wind motors are horribly inefficent and fall apart, don't you think the word would get out in the RC market?

Lets look at Stadium Truck racing. There are more than 2 stadium trucks on the market, yet most people choose an AE or a Losi. The reason why ... word has gotten out the other models don't preform as well.

Now lets go back to motors. If Delta wind motors are so horrible then you shouldn't have to make them illegal because quite simply.... word would get out and nobody would use them.

So what the real resaon for the rule?
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Old 04-09-2007, 03:54 PM   #33
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The real reason for the ROAR Brushless Motor rules?

Novak was the only company that submitted a formal proposal to ROAR to write rules for BL motors. No other manufacturers or importers were interested enough to submit proposals.

Even now---as far as Novak knows---no other company has ever submitted a formal proposal to ROAR to update or amend the existing BL motor rules.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Spoook
Now lets go back to motors. If Delta wind motors are so horrible then you shouldn't have to make them illegal because quite simply.... word would get out and nobody would use them.

So what the real resaon for the rule?
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Old 04-09-2007, 05:10 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adamge
wyd, nice fantasy.
Yeah I'm afraid it is going to be like it is now in stock racing. Looks like it is already starting for brushless.
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Old 04-09-2007, 05:56 PM   #35
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Wow, goodtimes being had in here for sure.

Hey Eddie, I remember our conversation I think it was just before the first Vegas no?? We were walking along and had about 1 minute to talk about it. I'll agree I said something right along those lines, but when I returned and asked the guys ( I know this sounds like back peddling ) they explained it completely to me. It wasn't so much about the power, as it was the efficiency. Everyone can take an explanation one way or the other. I re explained in a less then perfect fashion to you at the time based on what I understood. It's obvious why I work in Customer Service and not in Engineering.



If you guys all want the other motor, email your manufactures, ask them to submit some motors or some rules. Anyone can, we did, we aren't anyone special with Roar at all. Just sent some emails and made some calls. I'm sure the organization would love to have more manufactures involved. Don't get mad at us for picking one over the other, we picked what we wanted because we were the only ones doing anything about it. Our goal was to make a motor that was easy to tech and "check". The need for that type of checking is going by the wayside, but it's a few years down the road now as well.
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Old 04-09-2007, 06:22 PM   #36
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I don't know why everyone thinks Novak should submit a rule for a wind that they don't produce regardless of which is better. It is up to the companies producing a delta wind to submit and get involved with the racing bodies to get thier products legalized. I don't see this as Novak trying to corner the market more than some comanies being lazy or not willing to do the leg work themselves.
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Old 04-09-2007, 07:18 PM   #37
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Novak is pro active the way I see it. Its what puts them out front.
Keep up the good work.
And congratulations to Mr. Novak after 50 years of service to the industry.
On your induction to the R/C hall of Fame. Good work.
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Old 04-09-2007, 08:50 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mattnin
I hate it when people tell me what is best for me! I am an adult and I can choose between a delta wound vs wye wound brushless motor thank you very much.
you're free to run WHATEVER you want. in regards to roar rules, what input did you give roar regarding BL wind types.... because i'm sure being an 'adult' and being responsible for issues that affect you, that you contributed your experience to roar on this subject....right?

in my personal opinion, i could really care less if it's wye, delta, alpha-beta or safeway for that matter....what i do care about is someone with some technical knowledge and the financial means (finally), took a risk and stepped up to the plate to get our hobby moving towards a new, better direction.

i have no problem with novak, a for-profit company, reaping the benefits for being the catalyst to get BL into mainstream racing in our hobby. the rules are in black and white, the gauntlet has been thrown....so far it looks like lrp has stepped up successful. i'm not quite sure why tekin is going delta (not from a technical perspective, more from the rules/political). i'm not sure what castles product line and plans are (i have one of their systems in my m18, works great), but i'm sure they've got the capability to come out with a fully competitive compliant product if they do not already have one.

i'm not all that sure that it really matters what wind type unless you're running a class that calls for specific motor limitations....in which case again what does it matter the wind type as long as they're all the same?
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Old 04-10-2007, 01:06 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NovakTwo
The real reason for the ROAR Brushless Motor rules?

Novak was the only company that submitted a formal proposal to ROAR to write rules for BL motors. No other manufacturers or importers were interested enough to submit proposals.

Even now---as far as Novak knows---no other company has ever submitted a formal proposal to ROAR to update or amend the existing BL motor rules.
So what you are saying is that Novack is writing the rules for ROAR? That sounds about right.

This is why so many club level events completley ignore ROAR rules!
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Old 04-10-2007, 01:10 AM   #40
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So why would the rules exclude delta wind motors? It really sounds to me like Novak submitted a proposal that banned Delta wind motors. Why would anyone even write rules about Delta vs. Wye winds?

What is the reason to exclude delta winds, other than Novak submitted a proposal asking they be excluded?
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Old 04-10-2007, 01:11 AM   #41
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I do not think anyone expects Novak to submit rules for the competitions products. They make a great product, have made a huge investment , have paved the way for us all and have earned their leading position in the market. Why would they?

I consider this more political positioning and it has played out well. When there is a new BL motor proposal based on different technology presented to Roar, someone or a group of someones is going to decide yes or no. That has been a very small group in the past made up of those with a vested interest who chose to be involved and put forth the time and effort. That same group that has existing legal products on the market has been openly opposed to Delta winds and slotless motors for various reasons. Who can blame them? That is good business as Eddie likes to say.

Now that the public is getting educated and asking questions it has changed to “our stuff is just better” which is good marketing. However, this makes it very hard to vote or lobby against a design proposal that you have claimed is inferior and holds no competitive advantage. In fact they are inefficient and slow from what we are told.

Tekin builds professional level racing products. We consider racing an important part of who we are and how we show people how good our products are. We will do what ever it takes to play nice including offer another copy of the accepted design that performs just like everyone else but is a different color.

We hope to convince the ruling body, the general public and our competition to allow some new ideas. We are going to sell the motors and be successful with them regardless because they are darn good and in some applications far better. It is no secret that bashers pay the bills and they seem to like having torque all the way until the tires blow off. The current legal designs are decent for their specific race applications, but provide all their performance below ballistic speeds

Honestly I like the feel of a slotted motor and we always intended to offer a full product line. However there are still a few rules to be considered before we are willing to make the investment like requiring the magnet to be longer than the stack. Argument was that it does work well. Then no one should care. If we are going to build a 3slot motor then we are going to build the best one we can. We are truly engineers and do not like simply copying a design and slapping a label on it. Where is the fun in that?

In modified racing it should be a can size and stuff what ever you can in it. If you can hang onto it, then you are a pro mod driver. In most club mod racing a faster motor does not decide the winner very often, the driver skill does. I predict most users will discover that a 5 or 6 turn motor turns the same lap times and is soooo much easier on batteries, controllers and car parts. Might even get a few more people to race mod which many tracks struggle with.

For spec classes it will be challenging to make them truly equal without some kind of a hard power limit like brushed motors have. Push them too hard and they burn up. 10 or 13 turns of wire simply do not have the physical current limits that 19 and 27 turns of wire provide. I do not have an answer. Novak has lead the industry and set the standards that we all have to match in terms of performance. We just want to accomplish it our way.

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Old 04-10-2007, 05:48 AM   #42
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I guess will just have to wait and see what happens. I think we all can agree on one thing is we can't afford to loose anymore racers and bashers. The more open the rules are for brushless I think the better for the hobbyshops and race tracks to keep the attendance growing instead of declining like it seems to be in many areas.
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Old 04-10-2007, 07:58 AM   #43
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I agree in theory Wyd, but if it turns into a "bl motor/system of the week", wouldnt that make things even worse for racers ?
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Old 04-10-2007, 08:21 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wyd
I guess will just have to wait and see what happens. I think we all can agree on one thing is we can't afford to loose anymore racers and bashers. The more open the rules are for brushless I think the better for the hobbyshops and race tracks to keep the attendance growing instead of declining like it seems to be in many areas.
Right on! Simple and to the point!
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Old 04-10-2007, 09:32 AM   #45
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I don't race at tracks that don't let me run my setup. Currently my set up is not approved by ROAR! I also do not buy products from shops that do not let me race my setup!

I would really support a new governing body, that is not ROAR.
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