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12th scale Euros 2007

12th scale Euros 2007

Old 04-05-2007, 01:02 PM
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Equipment guide...

Yes, mod is pretty much all brushless now. The cars are awesome fast. Interestingly, it seems to have closed up the lap times - you can be three finals out in the midfield by losing five seconds over an 8 minute race. However, one of our guys finished 31st with a 12-turn brushed, and lots of people in the bottom 25 still use brushed.

However, you could take your speedo to one of the manufacturers and have it tuned (not just the team drivers, anyone) if you knew what to ask for, and there were hand-wound motors in use. A couple of drivers were clearly faster than everyone else. Motors were being modified by changing the wiring on the stators, and it was impossible to tell if the rotors were bonded or sintered without stripping every one. Basically, within the current rules, you can do anything you like providing the outer can and the label are on the approved list - there is no way of telling if everything else is as-bought (in the shops) or not. We are going to propose a brushed, 12T class, for our UK Nationals for next season!!

Bodies - 90% Parma Zytek, with the occasional Hot Bodies, CEFX and CRC thrown in. EFRA and BRCA do not approve the 'Speed' shells as they are too far away from 'realistic' with their peanut cockpits and additional wing strakes. We don't want to get to the point where we are running slot-car type wedges with no appearance of scale, and a selection of aerodynamic wedges as another essential tuning device!

The third most-popular chassis is the 12L4! CRC and Corally are very popular, and then there are all sorts of others by Hot Bodies, Trinity, and the new V-Design. 12L4 is the beginners chassis of choice, and is still very popular in the UK.

Parma and GRP tyres work best on Jack (non-smelly) additive, most popular grades were grey rear and magenta front. Pink rears didn't work on that carpet, but are used, and some used magenta rears instead of grey, and others used purple front instead of magenta.

Cells were all IB 4200. Spektrum used by some, 40Mhz still most popular - and don't forget we almost all use sticks! Steerwheel is gaining popularity compared to 10 years ago.

Hope that fills in the gaps, OD and others! If there's anything else, please ask.
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Old 04-05-2007, 01:46 PM
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EFRA and BRCA do not approve the 'Speed' shells
EFRA did and everybody but BRCA was happy with it, but somehow magically EFRA made a new list from the bodies just couple months before the Euros. Before this new list there was an official list that had PF Speed bodies approved and it was supposed to be the final list to be used at Euros. Even EFRA confirmed when asked straight that is this going to be the list used at Euros. Answer was YES. Why they changed the list.. Well I think most of Europeans already know the answer..

There is another thread from this subject already in place here.

and don't forget we almost all use sticks! Steerwheel is gaining popularity compared to 10 years ago.
You must be talking about situation in GB and from the whole Europe? Yes I have noticed that in GB sticks have came more popular, but I haven't seen the same trend in another European countries.

We are going to propose a brushed, 12T class, for our UK Nationals for next season!
Just remember that in Euros 2008 brushless will be allowed.
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Old 04-05-2007, 03:05 PM
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Default Zytec and Speed 8

funny thing on the bodies, if you put them side by side, other than the dome cockpit and the open cockpit with the tiny molded driver... they are the same. other than that i don't count the Zytec molded vents on the front fenders, and other items as being a major difference.

to me it would like outlawing the V-Dezign Carpet Ripper and ruling the Jari FF07 as being allowed

Last edited by fast-ho-cars; 04-05-2007 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 04-05-2007, 04:23 PM
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Gotta agree with fast-ho-cars.

To say the Zytec bodies look any more realistic than the closed cock pit bodies is wrong. None of them look real any more, to ban the ProtoForms seems a little strange.
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Old 04-05-2007, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by SlowerOne
...Hope that fills in the gaps, OD and others! If there's anything else, please ask.
Thanks for the report!
Is there a 12 turn limit on mod brushed motors? If so I can see why everyone went brushless
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Old 04-06-2007, 03:17 AM
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Hi, what type of Zytec was used at the euros? The 0.20 or the 0.30?
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Old 04-06-2007, 03:31 AM
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OD, no there is no brushed motor limit - i think slowerone was refering to a potential new class for the UK next year.

As for Zytek's, i suspect there were some using both regular and light weight. I'd guess the majority (certainly those at the top) were running l/w. I know that is what i always run - haven't every used a regular.
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Old 04-06-2007, 06:32 AM
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Originally Posted by MattW
As for Zytek's, i suspect there were some using both regular and light weight. I'd guess the majority (certainly those at the top) were running l/w. I know that is what i always run - haven't every used a regular.
Thank you
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Old 04-06-2007, 08:35 AM
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Most drivers used the lightweight version. Problem was that these bodies were quite hard to obtain since previously mentioned list came just couple months before the race. This new list mostly included ancient bodies that haven't been in use lately anymore, which meant that most stores didn't have them on stock anymore. We have two importers for Parma and another one had 3 pcs in stock and another just one at the moment when list was released and none at the next day anymore. When we asked that when they are going to get more of these bodies, reply was that in 4-6 weeks. That was not acceptable because we had information from EFRA that PF Speed 12 will be allowed and we had been practicing only with that, so we needed new bodies as soon as possible.

After realizing that I cannot get bodies from Finland anymore I called to The Border, which is an European online store. They didn't have any, but they were able to get through their importer 4 pcs and when they received them, one was broken so I got 3 pcs from there (random Parma quality). I ordered 5 more from Germany after that. Later I shared half of these bodies to other our drivers who had problems getting them. Other drivers placed orders to US and got the bodies that way, just week or two later. Also Vesa received some bodies from UK afaik.
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Old 04-06-2007, 11:37 AM
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Hello Everybody,

the organisers in Eskilstuna did once again a fantastic job, this was one of the best races I've ever been. Just started a bit too early in the mornings...

Great track, nice atmosphere, good food, fantastic racing. And the best, my stuff worked well...

Originally Posted by SlowerOne
However, one of our guys finished 31st with a 12-turn brushed, and lots of people in the bottom 25 still use brushed.

However, you could take your speedo to one of the manufacturers and have it tuned (not just the team drivers, anyone) if you knew what to ask for, and there were hand-wound motors in use. A couple of drivers were clearly faster than everyone else. Motors were being modified by changing the wiring on the stators, and it was impossible to tell if the rotors were bonded or sintered without stripping every one. Basically, within the current rules, you can do anything you like providing the outer can and the label are on the approved list - there is no way of telling if everything else is as-bought (in the shops) or not. We are going to propose a brushed, 12T class, for our UK Nationals for next season!!
I think your post could be a bit misleading in certain aspects and therefore I wanted to comment a few things from my point of view...

Brushless/Brushed: I actually don't think anyone in the Top30 ran brushed, but I'm not 200% sure.

Speedo Updates: the "speedo update guy" was myself and I did not do any black magic to them but just updated old versions to the "2007 Edition's". I think this was appreciated by everyone who didn't want to buy the new speedo.

Motors & Tech: I can't speak for Orion or GM, but my guys (LRP + Nosram) ran normal stuff and not anything hand-tuned or re-wound! The guys in tech where very active in checking rotors, they took apart quite a few motors and the difference between sintered and bonded is very noticable. So I don't think we had what you describe (no tech on motors...). Btw, there is no such thing as "motor approvals" with EFRA, you could run anything you like as long as it's within the rules.
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Old 04-06-2007, 12:36 PM
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Reto, nothing against the LRP guys or the system - I ran one too! My point is that there were 'home made' brushless motors in existence, and some of them were very fast. Unless you know how to make these motors, your car would be slow, as you cannot buy them.

My point about teching the motors was that they didn't do everyone. The problem of using illegal parts is not with the top 30 guys (they can't afford to use illegal stuff, they are likely to be 'tech'd' and their sponsors would drop them if their motors were not correct) it is with the middle 50 drivers. My motor was never tech'd, and how do I know I wasn't beaten by another driver with a sintered rotor? With a brushed motor it is easy to tell if the motor is as approved - with a brushless motor it is impossible unless every motor is stripped every run.

This problem will go away for a while, as the sintered rotor is now legal - until you guys come up with something else new!

OD - modified is an unlimited class in Europe, and brushless has been used for almost two years now. It isn't possible to compete with a brushed any more at a EuroChamps, but we regularly have one or two in the top ten at our Nationals. The brushless cars are very, very fast!
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Old 04-06-2007, 12:44 PM
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With brushless you will have so much more power to use that you are able to use even more "turns" like 6.5 instead of running with 8t brushed motor. With brushless runtime is not the issue compared to brushed.

I ran the Euros with one Nosram/LRP 5.5t motor, same that I used at the nationals week earlier to TQ and win the race. The slight difference after gearing and timing the motor against guys who run 4.5t wasnt very noticeable.

Thanks Reto for super power and all the help at the Euros! Much appreciated!!



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Old 04-06-2007, 07:23 PM
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so whats the most common brushless motor and spedo over there.
and can i get something over here in Canada to put in my 1/12 car.





so i can go very fast too
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Old 04-06-2007, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by wallyedmonds
so whats the most common brushless motor and spedo over there.
and can i get something over here in Canada to put in my 1/12 car.





so i can go very fast too

either a 5.5 or a 4.5 havent seen anyone crazy enough to run a 3.5
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Old 04-06-2007, 11:35 PM
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so whats the most common brushless motor and spedo over there.
and can i get something over here in Canada to put in my 1/12 car.
LRP Sphere Competition 2007 or GM Genius speed controller and LRP / Novak / GM 5.5R / 4.5R motor. Remember that Nosram = LPR, so I'm not separating those two.

The problem of using illegal parts is not with the top 30 guys (they can't afford to use illegal stuff, they are likely to be 'tech'd' and their sponsors would drop them if their motors were not correct) it is with the middle 50 drivers.
I was in F-final (positions 50-60) and didn't see any sign that people would have been using any illegal stuff. And I mean that I didn't see that at the track either. Nobody had any superior power / runtime which they could have gained using illegal stuff. IMO middle 50 drivers (like myself) are still struggling how to drive the car smoothly without mistakes 8 minutes (or they are good drivers who had bad luck in qualifying) and having more power just makes things worse.
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