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Old 05-11-2007, 11:34 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Pike
If you read the thread about the Tekin brushless system your questions are addressed. The Tekin can run the sensored motors, it's just not up to Tekin standard yet. It will be a software upgrade(s) through the Hotwire/usb set up.

My bet is that the "majority" will go sensorless, less mess and less weight. Time will tell.
Thanks Randy, I'll look over the thread. Presumably, it will run the sensored motors without the sensors, bypassing any benefit they may provide.

I'd be happy to go sensorless if it can be made as smooth as a sensored motor. Weight is a non-issue for the LiPo crowd, but it's worth consideration. It's going to come down to feel and performance I guess. LRP and Novak are in the market VERY deep, and it's going to take a lot of incentive for people to switch away from their investment in sensored motors.

I look forward to hearing more about the Tekin, and may try one out once they come to market.
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Old 05-12-2007, 02:18 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
I'd be happy to go sensorless if it can be made as smooth as a sensored motor.
The answer to that is no they can't: sensored vs sensorless

A competition ESC designed purely for racing = sensored.

Competition motor and ESC development is with sensored.
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Old 05-12-2007, 03:43 AM   #78
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from my rudementary understanding

Sensored - better low end control
Sensorless - more top end power
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Old 05-12-2007, 12:29 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by DA_cookie_monst
from my rudementary understanding

Sensored - better low end control
Sensorless - more top end power
GM's ESC will apparently use both if it finds Hall sensors, and use them (or not) depending on the RPM. It sounds good in theory, but that ESC is so hard to come by, it's difficult to give it a real test. Maybe we'll see more of this in the future from other, more established players like Tekin, Novak and LRP.
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Old 05-12-2007, 01:19 PM   #80
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The Sun rotates around the Earth….

The Earth is flat…..

4 stokes will never keep up with 2 stokes….

Just another myth to be dispelled over time….

Any chance that is some biased information? Kinda like thinking everything posted on a forum or fed to you in a marketing campaign is absolutely true. Those miracle products have not made me rich or wiped away anything grooody in my world, perhaps others have had better results. In the end the product will speak for itself.

Time permitting I will play. I do love a good technical debate and I am always willing to educate those who are open minded and willing to learn. Bring facts not opinions and behave yourself.

Sensorless is a misleading statement. We all sense something and react on it. We are in synch a lot faster than people are leading you to believe. Once you have good information from the motor what you do with it in response is irrelevant to how you got it. It is just an input to the firmware. The firmware is really what drives the motor.

Wye wind vs Delta is just 2 different ways to achieve the same result.

Slotless vs slotted feels different and each has its advantages.

We could argue the merits of each technology indefinitely, but the proof is on the track. Dumas won the 1/12 modified at snowbirds with our sensorless controller. Jason Moberly has been TQ almost every weekend at major CA tracks with a Tekin sensorless system while driving against sponsored drivers with sensored systems. The GM will run sensorless as well and seems to perform pretty good. Chevy / Ford, they all work pretty well and choices are a good thing

If you want compatibility for everyone then sensorless is also the answer. We can drive almost any motor from any manufacturer sensored or sensorless, delta or wye, slotted or slotless and regardless of number of poles.

Syndrome…
We have spoken with almost everyone that makes BL motors and evaluated many possible suppliers. In the end we supplied our exact design specifications to a couple unique manufacturers from other industries. Our plan is to avoid the common problem of designs coming out of door B with another color for someone else. FYI We are from the semiconductor manufacturing equipment industry and my engineering background is heavy in precision motion control and surface mount circuit board design and assembly. We have a few friends and buying Tekin really made sense for us.

If both technologies was the best answer we would have done it and still will if necessary to perform at an acceptable level. We just think we can get it done without being a hybrid and I believe we have.

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Old 05-12-2007, 02:19 PM   #81
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Thank you for the candid response, it's rare to get that from companies these days. It sounds like you feel as strongly about your convictions (sensorless) as Novak does about theirs (sensored). No clear "winner" has been determined, and maybe there never will be. If it's as you say, good programming will be what matters in the end. The unfortunate thing is that consumers are the ones caught in the middle. Until brushless ESC's support both technologies, or until a clear "winner" is determined, we're going to be split. The ability to drive all motors sensorless is a decent option, but seemingly secondary to being able to optionally take advantage of the sensors if they're present, bypass them entirely, or use some kind of hybrid mode based on RPM. That is, unless, there's entirely no merit to using sensors, which is the impression I get from you.

Anyway, I mean no disrespect, I'm just an interested consumer that's trying to peel away the layers of market speak, and see the issue and technology for what it really is. Too many people let brand loyalty (or sponsorship) cloud their vision, which prevents us from getting down to the nuts and bolts of the thing.

By the way, didn't Marc Fischer win 1/12 at the Snowbirds this year using a GM ESC (and motor) without the sensors? It's interesting that he went sensorless, since that combo gives you the option of doing it either way.
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Old 05-12-2007, 03:06 PM   #82
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how much will it cost ?
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Old 05-12-2007, 06:31 PM   #83
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Tekin, hurry up and get your motors out! My local club just changed the rules to allow brushless in stock and 19t. But, I can't run the Novak motors with my Mamba Max ESC. So, I need some Tekin motors.
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Old 05-12-2007, 07:17 PM   #84
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I do not believe I have said that sensored is bad or even inadequate. Sensored obviously has merit and works extremely well. I would be a fool to argue otherwise since you and I both own one and they rip! I thought we were discussing if sensorless is as good or better.

Yes I feel it is very important that our controller can drive most motor types. I am not convinced we should make our motors so a competitor can drive them. They are designed specifically for our system and it is a liability to claim they will work well with any controller just because it is sensored. There are some technical differences that other controllers may not handle well even though they are able to track the rotor position.

Our motors work well with our controllers and that is all I am willing to assure anyone. These are complex systems and it is difficult to cover the entire spectrum of motor designs and always provide the performance level expected in RC unless you have some control over both pieces.

I will proudly say we prefer you use our motor with our controller. We are confident this will provide the best overall and consistent performance. Except for the fact that we do not have any motors yet, by golly when we do that’s what you otta use. For now you can use their motor, but I’m telling ya you will like ours better. We unguneeeered it good.

So in retrospec I retract all the politically correct things I said. Our stuff is the BOMB, our technology the BEST, our features ROCK and we LOOK GOOD. I am allowed to think our stuff is better right? We did work really, really hard on it.

It will cost about the same as everybody elses.

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Old 05-12-2007, 07:24 PM   #85
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i can attest to these bad boys - I saw Dumas running today out at our local track and they seem to be working flawlessly - the cases are tiny and provide plenty of real estate on the chassis, as it fit with ease on his Type R.

i am not sure what motor he was running - but he was flying - i think it was a 3 or 5 turn......
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Old 05-12-2007, 11:16 PM   #86
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Here is wild idea I always had for BL system: traction control.

As you can sense the RPM of motor, and motor is direct link to wheel, it should able to sense the RPM change on wheel. There should be no problem to make somekind of traction control system just like F1 did by compare the throttle input and actural RPM. Evenmore, by checking Amp loading from motor, realtime dynamic timing should be possible to generate higher power accross entire powerband.

Wild idea I know..
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Old 05-12-2007, 11:54 PM   #87
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That was done a long time ago by GM. It even had a gyro in it that would sorta counter steer for you if you got sideways. It's all completely illegal for any sanctioned racing though but it was cool.

Anyone concerned about smoothness with a sensorless speedo need not worry. The R1pro with the Tekin motors is simply awesome.
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Old 05-12-2007, 11:57 PM   #88
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Again, I applaud you guys for being so candid, thank you for the response. I apologize if I sounded presumptuous before, I guess I fail at reading between the lines. I eagerly await Tekin's new stuff, and will probably buy the ESC and stock motor purely out of personal interest. I enjoy testing these things to better familiarize myself with all the available options.
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Old 05-13-2007, 02:09 PM   #89
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Has it been disclosed how many turns the "stock" motor is, or whether it's delta or wye wound?
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Old 05-13-2007, 07:16 PM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mo
That was done a long time ago by GM. It even had a gyro in it that would sorta counter steer for you if you got sideways. It's all completely illegal for any sanctioned racing though but it was cool.
GM's "traction control" isn't real traction control. AFAIK it just an Amp limiter, nothing close to RPM/wheel load sensing traction control. As for gyro steering help, that device only works for drafting rightnow, not for racing, and nothing close to slide control in real world car which incorporate with throttle control and punch of other stuffs.
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