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Old 03-17-2007, 11:57 AM   #61
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Lets try this again. When a reply is given please include. Notice I said PLEASE.

Where do you race at?

What is the turn out for Stock sedan? Not Mod or offroad.

How many run brushed?

How many run 13.5 Brushless?
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Old 03-17-2007, 12:05 PM   #62
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ovrccc lunch and more & mountwood raceway
people running stock brushed TC sedan about 30-35 weekly
that includes sportsman and stock and prostock

we have several people who want to switch to running brushless 13.5

we also have an open mod class witch has a some what inconsistent turn out of about 5-6
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Old 03-17-2007, 12:06 PM   #63
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Syndrome, at this point I am waiting to do much more development......mainly because of the lack of any rules......my business is targeted towards racing (which I get argued with constantly that I am passing on EASY money)......so until I can put out a RACE motor, you won't see much from me.

The problem with the 13.5 is the fact that it's already faster than the normal stocks.....by a lot, especially in some classes. In my mind, they should of made it a tad slower, as with all the arguements about cutting costs, slowing the cars down a tad would not of been a bad thing....

And the scary part, all my sources tell me the LRP 13.5....which is pretty much built nearly the same is a FULL lap faster on the avg carpet track....


I bought 10 of the 13.5 about a month back.....I ran them on my custom dyno (still not the best, but good enough).....I ran each motor over and over at my house on it....Some motors were up to 10% more powerful on the dyno than the next....though the spread was to probably more consistent from motor to motor. Of the ten....using the worst motor as an example. I had 2 at 1%, 2 at 3%, 1 at 5%, 1 at 6%, 2 at 8%, and 1 at 10%....

10% is a pretty big number.....in normal stocks, 120 watt motor is consider GOOD....but at a 10% increase, 132 watt stock motor is a rocket....power is power, plain and simple.

And while dyno numbers don't always go hand and hand with the track, they 95% of the time.....rarely does one of our main winning stocks not end up dyno out to be among the best.

So, the first incarnation of the br00d brushless stock you will see.....is hand picked rockets from fully blueprinted Novak 13.5 motors......

The difference is there.....and people will pay for it.....and so starts the everyone being in the same boat as were before.....the only big advantage is you shouldn't have to buy a new motor as often....

But thats testing I am going to work on next....

Later EddieO
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Old 03-17-2007, 04:30 PM   #64
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Excellent post eddie. To those that troll and say bad things about matchers and tuners, here is proof that they will be just fine.

Last edited by billjacobs; 03-17-2007 at 07:36 PM.
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Old 03-17-2007, 10:32 PM   #65
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I'll share a crude way of testing batteries and brushless motors. I use a watts up meter.

I use it to select a motor propeller and gear ratio setup for my planes.

I mount the motor on the bench and put on a prop that will draw the max amp rating for the motor at full throttle. Then with a tach increase the rpm incrementally through the rpms till full throttle while noting the amp draw and voltage at each increment. Then change the motor and compare the notes between the two. Of course you need a battery that can easily handle the max amps and top it off of each time.

The motor that draws the least amps at each incrememt is the most effeciant.

You can do the same thing for batteries just use the same motor and prop and change the batteries.

Last edited by IlikeRCstuff; 03-18-2007 at 12:04 AM.
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Old 03-18-2007, 12:58 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jake S
i can see how the 13.5 would be an advantage on any kind of oval racing, as it can be geared closer to the moon then a brushed motor, but for any kind of road course or offroad racing, i fail to see why being able to gear higher helps, i thought any kind of racing that involves turning right, good acceleration was more important than high - end of the straight speed, without all the low-end punch.
EddieO is right. Power is power.

It does not matter what scale of car, track design, or track size. Motor power is king. Plain and simple. Speed is just as matter of gearing.

From everything I've seen in the last few years, the best brushed 27T motors put out 120 - 135 watts of power.
According to Novak's website, their 13.5 Brushless puts out 165 watts of power.

This confirms why the everyone is noticing that the 13.5 brushless is faster than 27T brushed.

When it comes to the power variations from brushless motor to brushless motor, I would have to strongly disagree with EddieO's variation findings on his custom dyno. Maybe because EddieO's custom dyno favors RPM or doesn't show the full data under a controlled load, I don't know. What I can tell you is our track has been running the brushless 13.5 class since November, and we've swapped motors around and our lap times are identical. I've personally tried 4 of them, (one of them was the first generation 13.5 with the small bearing) and they still produced identical lap times.

I read a post a while back (I think it was in hobbytalk) where a group of racers tested six 13.5's. Three motors were brand new, three had been raced. They used a TurboDyno with a Novak SS speedo. If my memory serves me correctly, all six motors were within 3 watts of eachother! I'll try to find the post.
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Old 03-18-2007, 01:33 AM   #67
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My dyno is very accurate....

I have tried the turbodyno with the speed controller, its not very accurate....

Simply put, motors in general will always have variations. If they didn't, there would be no dogs in stock... I will give the fact that the novaks in general seem to be a lot more consistent from motor to motor.....10% still is a decent amount of power, but in brushed we can see up to 20% increases from a bad motor to a good one....110 watt dogs do show up....

6 motors is a fairly small sample(smaller than mine), not to mention if they were all from the same patch, the tolernances could be more on with each other......just like in brush, we get a ROCKET case sometimes and a dog case every once in a while. I ordered my motors a few weeks apart and from 3 different distributors with the goal of getting motors from different batches.

As for lap times being the same....its possible. I don't put as much into though, as there so many variables....did you use the same gearing? Did they both have the same tire sizes? Same pack? Same day? See my point.

Gearing could of been the main culprit.....if motor A is 132 watts and motor B is 125....motor A gained its additional power in torque, while RPM stayed the same.....if you just swapped the motor in for B.....with B's gearing, you would not be taking advantage of that extra torque with adjusted gearing.

Like Big Jim always said.....Power is power, its just a matter of gearing....

And besides......3 watts is 3 watts.....little over a 1% increase.....I will take 1% all day long if it gives me the advantage......no different than batteries, go do the math on the percent gained from a 1.239 to a 1.240 (which most companies charge the next price up for).....

Later EddieO
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Old 03-18-2007, 07:36 AM   #68
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even the 13.5's are hand wound and assembled, which probably explains the better QC motor to motor... regardless would be interesting to see a very large sample set on these and see how the mode value compares to the mean..
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Old 03-18-2007, 11:39 AM   #69
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First of all, let me chime in as a non brushless user

Talking with some of the oval guys at our regional, they said the 13.5 with the sintered rotor is like 3 laps faster on their oval. That says to me that the motor is faster than stock with the sintered rotor. Oval is probably the best test, as there are less chances for driver error and more consistency.
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Old 03-18-2007, 04:30 PM   #70
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So, will Novak sees this 165 Watt vs 125 Watt (tunned stock) differents?
Just rename the 13.5 = 23T and create the 14.5 (or acutally 15.5) and have the 125 Watt +/- output Brushless.........
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Old 03-18-2007, 04:44 PM   #71
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I just think it will come down to separate classes someday. Will have a brushed stock and some sort of brushless stock class (hopefully with many brands being represented to.)

ANyone who races and sees a 13.5 brushless motor being run by someone good knows that they are faster than a brushed stock motor. Not much argument the 13.5 is simply faster.
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Old 03-18-2007, 08:07 PM   #72
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looks like a 15.5 would be nearly 135 watts, so a 17.0 would be pretty close, say about 125.
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Old 03-18-2007, 08:09 PM   #73
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why not use crawler motors? 119 watts
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Old 03-18-2007, 09:18 PM   #74
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And i guess everyone that was advancing the timing today and still running a 4.8 gear ratio was wrong that it made a huge difference.
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Old 03-18-2007, 09:42 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AARON YOUNG
And i guess everyone that was advancing the timing today and still running a 4.8 gear ratio was wrong that it made a huge difference.
Who me??? And anyway, it was only 4.95.
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