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Old 03-16-2007, 07:40 PM   #16
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As cheap as a couple of 13.5 motors are compared to the money spent on race batteries, isn't it cheaper to have a 13.5 just for racing? Just use the current brush motors for practice until there are no more comms left to turn?
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Old 03-16-2007, 08:10 PM   #17
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I don't think adding classes will water them down, it may in turn cause a trade off. And more class options can even make for more turn out. Just by simply adding a 13.5 only class with any battery would be the way to go I think.
At our track in the right hands, and the right set up, a 13.5 with a sintered rotor can literally keep up with a 4300 in the hands of an average driver. Its been proven. As far as any one at our track. They will tell you straight up the sintered 13.5 is faster than a 27t. And outside on a larger track the 13.5 will probably even be faster, you can gear it even taller, and with the sintered rotor? LOOK OUT.
Club racing mix them.
Sanction racing separate them.
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Old 03-16-2007, 08:20 PM   #18
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i appriciate everybodys input keep it coming other club members are reading this thread as well

thankz a bunch
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Old 03-16-2007, 08:32 PM   #19
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At the World of Hobbies in Cincinnati the brushed guys always beat the 13.5 guys. With that said the brushed guys are the better drivers but Ive been reeled in by some of them before on the straightaway.
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Old 03-16-2007, 08:39 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred kellner
It is really hard to make a point on R/C tech with people who are slow or don't know anything about racing. There is one race I know of that has run brushed and 13.5 in the same race. At the Novak race at Trackside hobbies both ran rubber tires, and if you look at the results you can see how much faster the lap times are for 13.5's. The pro's are not faster because they have special motors and batteries. They are faster because they are the best drivers around. The 13.5 won't level the playing field, the fast guys will always win because they are better drivers.
You're right, Fred, it does depend a lot on who's using it, but in more average hands(like mine, for example, I think I'm a bit closer to average in driving ability), it didn't make as much a difference. When I arrived in Milwaukee for the Novak, I was setup for brushed stocks & then on Thursday that week I broke down & got the 13.5 & switched to the Brushless class, so I got pretty equal time with both. And my best laps with the 13.5 were only about .2 sec. faster than my best with brushed, & my best complete runs were similarly close. And here at home, we're allowing the 13.5 with brushed motors, but only WITHOUT the sintered rotor, & because of the original one's being much more temp-sensitive, we have to gear more conservatively, & as a result, I think the racing is pretty darn close between the brushed & brushless, we get a good mix of guys with both, & each one's advantages seem to cancel each other out(& as usual, it ends up coming down to car setup & driving).....
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Old 03-16-2007, 08:46 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fred kellner
It is really hard to make a point on R/C tech with people who are slow or don't know anything about racing. There is one race I know of that has run brushed and 13.5 in the same race. At the Novak race at Trackside hobbies both ran rubber tires, and if you look at the results you can see how much faster the lap times are for 13.5's. The pro's are not faster because they have special motors and batteries. They are faster because they are the best drivers around. The 13.5 won't level the playing field, the fast guys will always win because they are better drivers.
I just went and looked at the results. From the A-mains of stock and 13.5 rubber. There were 3 racers who were in the A-mains of both classes. The time differences between them are less than the differences between a co27 and a monster.
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Old 03-16-2007, 09:05 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trilerian
I just went and looked at the results. From the A-mains of stock and 13.5 rubber. There were 3 racers who were in the A-mains of both classes. The time differences between them are less than the differences between a co27 and a monster.
I have several issues,

1st being cost.
if this is not an issue with anyone wanting to try it, itz not up to me to stop them, I try to help cost wise with ALL my customers, it is an honest issue, one that is very important to the future of the club, if the 'sport' becomes too costly, people will move on to another hobby, some are more than willing to spend the $$ required, some, not, this is a personal commitment to the sport to spend the required $$ to be competitive at thier level, I just want to see an even playing field for EVERYBODY!!!

2nd, race day?
yes, I believe the 13.5 is better than my 'stock' setup
maybe equal for 'regional' motors
less than equal to Mo's Snowbird motors
where does this leave the club come trophy
races??? Will the 'out of towners' still feel competitive with thier stock motors vs our brushless guyz??? will they 'boycott' us for allowing the 13.5 in thier class
[whatever class that is]?? will some 'boycott' us for NOT allowing it???
these are questions that are important to make an informed decision on this issue

several other tracks have endorsed the 13.5 and MANY have switched, I hate to see us be left in the dust, we should move ahead, we should probably have a meeting just for this issue with as many members possible attend, with ALL classes clearly represented,

I have almost as much motor equipment as Tom to mess with the stock motors, and I will probably not get rid of it, BUT this does not mean I either endorse or condemn the brushless, I will not be involved in this decision making process, I am too close to the subject and remain neutral,

{AND as you all know I do own a brushless [3.5] and I love it, it surely is a diff destroyer, but it has been trouble free, and more power than anyone can use.}

So, Club members, make your opinions heard, make a informed decision, AND continue to be
PASSIONATE' about your hobby, that is what makes this Club stand out in this world of Radio controlled car racing!!! And I for one am glad to say I am a member!!!
Thankx for taking the time to read this 'drivel'
Speedy Bill


------------------

ok so I cheated, I copy/pasted from our clubs members only forum[ovrccc.com]

after long discussions with pro drivers, and beginners[sportsman] it has become increasingly clear, allow the 13.5 brushless [NOVAK ONLY!!] WITHOUT THE SINTERED ROTOR!!!!, see where this 'experiment' takes us [ovrccc] and make adjustments as needed,

Thankx Jesse, good idea
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Old 03-16-2007, 09:07 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UN4RACING
I don't think adding classes will water them down, it may in turn cause a trade off. And more class options can even make for more turn out. Just by simply adding a 13.5 only class with any battery would be the way to go I think.
At our track in the right hands, and the right set up, a 13.5 with a sintered rotor can literally keep up with a 4300 in the hands of an average driver. Its been proven. As far as any one at our track. They will tell you straight up the sintered 13.5 is faster than a 27t. And outside on a larger track the 13.5 will probably even be faster, you can gear it even taller, and with the sintered rotor? LOOK OUT.
Club racing mix them.
Sanction racing separate them.
this is with sedans at Fastlane in Missouri?
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Old 03-16-2007, 09:23 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UN4RACING
At our track in the right hands, and the right set up, a 13.5 with a sintered rotor can literally keep up with a 4300 in the hands of an average driver. Its been proven.
Check out the laps at the carpet nats. 1st and 2nd in the stock A-main ran just as many laps as the 6th-10th in the 19t A-main.
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Old 03-16-2007, 09:23 PM   #25
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Do you really want to be in the position to turn someone away because they show up with a 13.5 and want to race? Because I promise you the new faces you see are going to show up with brushless systems. Embrace them now and make friends, or embrace them later and hope they forgive you for shunning them.

As for the 13.5 with the sintered rotor, that's the only version you can buy new now. Track rules saying you have to use the bonded rotor are going to be a challenge since it doesn't come with the motors anymore. You can undergear the motor by a tooth or two and keep it reasonable if you're really seeing that huge a difference.
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Old 03-16-2007, 09:46 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by speedybill
after long discussions with pro drivers, and beginners[sportsman] it has become increasingly clear, allow the 13.5 brushless [NOVAK ONLY!!] WITHOUT THE SINTERED ROTOR!!!!, see where this 'experiment' takes us [ovrccc] and make adjustments as needed,

Thankx Jesse, good idea
Speedy
Speedy, you might want to rethink the "without the sintered rotor" part. Novak no longer sells it without the sintered rotor so unless they continue to sell the old rotor people wont be able to get the equipment necessary to run in that class (at least not new).
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Old 03-16-2007, 09:49 PM   #27
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"I'm sorry sir, you'll need to buy the 'old busted' rotor if you want to run your 13.5 at this track."
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Old 03-16-2007, 10:30 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fast-ho-cars
this is with sedans at Fastlane in Missouri?
Yeah a med size track. (carpet) 10th scale sedan.
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Old 03-16-2007, 10:39 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by or8ital
Speedy, you might want to rethink the "without the sintered rotor" part. Novak no longer sells it without the sintered rotor so unless they continue to sell the old rotor people wont be able to get the equipment necessary to run in that class (at least not new).
I'll add that the stock rotor defeats the purpose of the whole brushless appeal. I don't want to replace rotors every 3 or 4 weeks. Put in the sintered and you have what we all are wanting, No maintenance and most importantly less cost.
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Old 03-16-2007, 10:39 PM   #30
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At our track, we had a person help to "kick start" the brushless class by handing out 13.5 brushless motors to any regulars who wanted to race 1/12th brushless. This free motor got people over the transition hump to brushless much faster. Soon, the class was running well on it's own, especially after the word started spreading on the benefits of brushless.

From the beginning we realized that the 13.5 brushless motor was slightly faster, and we easily voted to allow brushed motors to run with us. We even went as far as to allow them to put ball bearings in their brushed motors. We also left our club minimum 1/12th weight at 32oz. This helped the brushed drivers a little more since brushed weighs less (brushless cars generally are 35oz+). So the brushed guys could have bearings, and weighed less.

It has worked out fairly well, but the 13.5 brushless motors generally are faster. Although one of the brushed drivers set the track record (excellent well known driver). So to answer the question, no, you probably shouldn't allow the 13.5 to be run in the brushed class. But I would allow the brushed motors to be run in the 13.5 brushless class. So start up a brushless 13.5 class and allow them to run with you. Soon, brushed will die off, as brushless is no doubt the future.

Brushless has been absolutely great for the hobby. The motors produce the same power from motor to motor, race to race, week to week. New racers buy 1 brushless motor and they are done. Now, all they do is work on driving and setting up the car. Batteries are not quite as important either since brushless uses 20% less mAh. All of those benefits, plus little to no maintainence is great for new growth. It really has reduced the motor out of the equation.

Last edited by James35; 03-16-2007 at 11:07 PM.
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