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Old 04-06-2007, 01:44 PM   #136
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1. contrary to previous posts, new hobbyists/racers do NOT want slow, they want fast...very fast.

2. existing racers do not want slow, otherwise things like 4c packs and 5' motors would have taken off years ago (to some degree this worked for oval, all 1% of the hobby of them).

3. making all bl stock-equivelant motors equal is not what most hobbyists/racers want, they want newer/bigger/better/faster/stronger. they want fresh ideas, new bling, the perception that everything is equal, yet that they can gain an advantage through time/effort/resources. shops want this too as it drives sales.

it would be incredibly easy to limit rpm/amperage through a bl speed control, while at the same time making the motors extremely consistent. though people preach otherwise, money speaks and most people are saying no.

my favorite post i have read in this thread was a comment to not let bl/13.5 run with brushed, but rather have bl/13.5 classes and allow brushed to run with them.

technology and support has finally matured for bl to a point that we have this thing as great as dss/dsm and peak chargers at our doorstep, yet some still seem hesitant to move forward.
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Old 04-06-2007, 01:45 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by James35
Indeed. Additionally, we even allowed the brushed racers to put ball bearings in their motors. We also kept the minimum weight at a very low 32oz to help the lighter brushed racers even more. Most of us brushless 1/12th oval racers weigh in at a hefty 36oz+.
The difference is drastically more pronounced in 1/12th and oval than anywhere else, so with a combo of the two, it's understandable that you see a pretty big gap. I'm not saying it isn't present in sedans as well, because there is some gap, but it doesn't seem nearly as bad as people are making it out to be.
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Old 04-06-2007, 01:50 PM   #138
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Originally Posted by Speedyjay
on our last track layout the only racers clearing the center triple jump in the 27 turn stock class were the 13.5's All the rest of us would have to go double/single... the 13.5's held a huge advantage during the first few weeks of layout. A few of us said some stuff and some of the 13.5 racers volantarily de-geared the motors and adjusted to the double/single of the rest of us.
A gentleman's agreement at a club race that helped keep people on equal ground while still giving them a choice? What a brilliant damn idea!

Shouldn't that be what club races are all about? Save the strict rules for big races where it matters. If you offer track bucks or something in club races, give people the option of forfeiting that prize if they want to still use brushless, and give it to the next guy.

There are ways to make this work and make it good enough for club racing.
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Old 04-06-2007, 01:55 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gee-dub
1. contrary to previous posts, new hobbyists/racers do NOT want slow, they want fast...very fast.
I agree that new a hobbyist wants speed. I hear it all the time, especially in the younger crowd. The first thing they want to tell you about is how fast their modified 15T motor is (usually a cheap $20 motor), and how much faster they are when bashing against their friends.

However, as soon as they start racing, reality sets in, as they quickly discover how fast racing really is compared to their bashing skills. Unfortunately, many of them give up, and revert back to bashing. Brushless is certainly going to help the future of the hobby, but new racer growth is currently slow, as I'm sure you'd all agree.
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Old 04-06-2007, 02:40 PM   #140
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Just to reply to the slow growth. We have had a great opening season at our new indoor track. I saw 17 guys buy new cars and join in. That is where the BL/BR issue became a problem. The BL guys were blowing past the BR guys, especially noticed on oval nights. When many of the new guys that ran BR stockers, they became discouraged and pissed that drivers who could hit walls and win just because of a more powerful motor. Its great to have a powerful motor, but if you are that much faster than everyone else where does the RACING factor come in. Should we do like they did when motocross flipped from 2 stroke to 4 stroke technology. 125cc vs 250cc and let BR run a comparable motor to the BL guys. Just a few concerns from a new track organizer. How to keep everyone happy? YEA Right!
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Old 04-06-2007, 03:02 PM   #141
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What if you made it a spec class that would allow up to 19T brushed and 13.5 brushless to run together. That way, the brushed guys could have a slight power advantage and the brushless guys would have all the advantages of running brushless. I think I would give up a little power for the ease of BL.
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Old 04-06-2007, 03:10 PM   #142
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If speed mattered most everyone would run Mod...but they don't...so much for that argument.

Racers want good close racing at speeds they can handle (whether they are willing to put it that way is another story ).

13.5 will be its own class probably in the 2008 rules. It will be the new stock class. 27T will stick around for a while at club tracks until everyone goes BL.

The same will eventually happen with 10.5BL and 19T.

Mod will stay mixed BR and BL until BL controllers can drive the motors as smoothly (driver feel wise) as BR motors....they aren't there...yet.
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Old 04-06-2007, 03:34 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James35
If you want more racers, more future competition, more technology growth, more hobby shops and race tracks to choose from, then you will learn to consider what the new racers need. Today's "Stock" motor speeds are faster than modified motors of year past. The "Stock" speeds keep going up, and it too fast for new racers.

I think everyone should read this post by Chuck Kimbrough, the owner of Kimbrough Products.


Brushless is certainly going to help with the "too much time" objection, but the speed issue is still there for new racers.



Yes, no doubt that testing must have been with the bonded rotors. All future bonded rotor testing should stop for 2 main reasons:
#1. Sintered is the better technology.
#2. If a club decides on racing a certain bonded motor, inevitably, there will always be racers who think someone is cheating by putting a sintered rotor in.

My suggestion is for Novak to release another sintered rotor motor that puts out 130Watts of power to match that of today's 27T brushed motors.
Actually I was referring to the seasoned racer.
What a new racer needs and wants are for sure two different things.
A new racer has to learn from his own inexperience. We can only be there for advise.
If the current stocks are to fast for the beginner, then novice needs to be silver can.
How long would that racer stay in it? We know what they need but what they want is the matter.
Most on road racers to my knowledge all started in the dirt.
Even with silver can racing, and ready to runs its hard to get some one to start out in on road and stick with it.
Its the competition level of on road and cost. A new racer needs the ability to be free spirited first. Bodda bing bodda boom dirt just got a new racer. I mean really we hold them back to stock and if thats to fast what the heck can we do?
We have to speed it up for the current racer in order to keep a less competitive class for the beginner.
I personally don't believe its the speed with all the alternative slower motors.
Tamiya Minis, 18t's and so on.
We may never learn the true reason for slow growth in on road?
Maybe we just get the retired dirt racers?
But the industry is doing there part in meeting the demands and request of the current racers in an effort to get growth up. B/L is proof. And the cost right now is as low as ever to race. So slow it down, I don't think thats the right direction.
But like I always say, I'm not the wizard, I'm just trying to be.
As long as we don't give up it will all come around.
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Old 04-06-2007, 03:43 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gee-dub
1. contrary to previous posts, new hobbyists/racers do NOT want slow, they want fast...very fast.

2. existing racers do not want slow, otherwise things like 4c packs and 5' motors would have taken off years ago (to some degree this worked for oval, all 1% of the hobby of them).

3. making all bl stock-equivelant motors equal is not what most hobbyists/racers want, they want newer/bigger/better/faster/stronger. they want fresh ideas, new bling, the perception that everything is equal, yet that they can gain an advantage through time/effort/resources. shops want this too as it drives sales.

it would be incredibly easy to limit rpm/amperage through a bl speed control, while at the same time making the motors extremely consistent. though people preach otherwise, money speaks and most people are saying no.

my favorite post i have read in this thread was a comment to not let bl/13.5 run with brushed, but rather have bl/13.5 classes and allow brushed to run with them.

technology and support has finally matured for bl to a point that we have this thing as great as dss/dsm and peak chargers at our doorstep, yet some still seem hesitant to move forward.
1. Sure, new racers WANT fast, but they can't drive it! Sorry, I've seen the morons come into the hobby shop who have never held a remote control in their hand and they bought whatever car they were told was fastest. Usually, they couldn't even build it, and if they did, it came back to the shop within a day or two absolutely destroyed. This is one time where we absolutely can't listen to what the consumers SAY they want.

2. Who cares what current racers want? If keeping us happy was enough, then we wouldn't be complaining about low turnouts at races and tracks wouldn't be closing. We need new blood, and it's the current racers that are stopping that.

3. Again, who cares what the racers want? It is exactly the situation that you are describing that is keeping new racers out of the hobby and forcing some drivers to quit.



It all comes down to time, money and ability. This is a hobby, not a sport. If people find they have to spend too much time or money on it just to be competitive, not win, just compete, or if they can't control the slowest sanctioned class, they'll move on to a new hobby.

Just look at the date on the article by Chuck Kimbrough. It's from 1997! How much has our speed increased since then? If you tried running a 1997 stock motor today, you would probably get lapped 4 or 5 times. And he felt they were too fast for newer racers.

We don't need ANOTHER class, we need to redefine the current classes. It's time to slow stock down. And with the introduction of brushless, we have an incredible opportunity. Let's get the stock speed back to where a new driver has a hope of controlling the car.


And to give you some perspective on where I'm coming from, I've been racing for over 17 years now. I currently race 12th scale carpet as my primary class, and I'm running the Novak 13.5 brushless. I love the technology, and after 17 years of racing, I'm reasonably in control. But, I'd never let my 11 year old son who has been racing for 6 years run one... it's too fast for him.

And yes, just like those morons in the hobby shop, he always asks for a faster motor... But I know he isn't ready and I'm still in a position to control that. If I let him motor up, he would break more frequently, and more severely. Unfortunately, not all racers have a dad at the track to keep them from making stupid decisions.
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Old 04-06-2007, 03:53 PM   #145
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gotpez I agree. The beginner class could be slower.
Like maybe a bonded rotor or some thing?
No offense to any one I'm just trying like every one else putting in 2.
But slower just makes you want to go faster.
For beginners the beginning speed is important.
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Old 04-06-2007, 05:04 PM   #146
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Brushless motors are more of a permanent purchase than a brushed motor. It would be nice if we could use the same motor (13.5, or whatever) for our beginner class, and stock class. That's sort of the path that's been set with the Novak EX motors, but even those might be considered too fast. Plus, that bonded rotor has problems of its own.

Would it be possible to design a rotor that works with Novak's motors that retards the performance? Maybe one with a plastic core, or smaller diameter or something that produces a lot less power.
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Old 04-06-2007, 06:03 PM   #147
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Here's what I'll throw on the table...

If you are a BRUSHED MOTOR racer not getting a 'deal' from any mfg. and buying your motors over the counter at a LHS (You probably aren't racing anyway..but) how much do you spend per YEAR on motors trying to keep a couple top level fresh motors?

Do you sell off your old motor to recoop any of that from a newbie or other local racer?

Brushless Motors are not cheap - but they don't sell for much different price that a current HandWound GOOD Brushed MODIFIED motor.

So, just for the sake of arguement..we'll say you HAVE a B/L speed control already...and need to buy motors for a upcoming season.

You could buy 3 B/L motors @ approx. $90.00 EA. NEW = $270.00

1 could be a (undeterminded yet to be released) Wind = to current STOCK motors (or for yucks...the 13.5Pro Series)

1 could be a 10.5Pro Series (formerlly known as a 4300)

1 could be a 3.5 - 6.5 MOD version depending on just HOW FAST you want to run.

With these 3 motors you could run virtually ANY Speed Class you want...on virtually any track..and NOT need another motor for possibly a year....maybe 2...or more.

Or, if you run both STOCK and 19t now...you could buy 3 or 4 Stock motors at what $45.00 ea. plus 3 or 4 19t motors at a similar price, plus enough brushes and springs to keep these motors alive for the year...have a dyno to make sure they are good...have a comm lathe to keep them alive...etc....but just the motor price itself would be about the same before the extra expenses...plus you'll probably buy MORE new stuff next year..or before the NATIONALS, and/or the IIC and/or the SNOWBIRDS...etc.

How many competitive Brushed guys buy 3 or 4 NEW motors before a BIG non-handout race? (Probably very FEW, because MOST of the COMPETITIVE racers going to those BIG races have a SPONSOR)
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Old 04-06-2007, 07:31 PM   #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
The difference is drastically more pronounced in 1/12th and oval than anywhere else, so with a combo of the two, it's understandable that you see a pretty big gap. I'm not saying it isn't present in sedans as well, because there is some gap, but it doesn't seem nearly as bad as people are making it out to be.
There is also some correlation to touring car, as far as weight goes. I know that in my TRF415, my car weighs in at about 55.8 oz. with my brushless setup(the GTB & 13.5 with Novak's heat sink on it), but switch it out for my brushed setup(a GTX & stock motor like a Co27, for example) & the weight comes down to 51.8 oz. Even in 1/10 scale cars, 4 ounces is quite noticable a difference, & I think that's a small part of why it can be possible for brushed & the 13.5 to run together(but again, this only works with the bonded rotor, I DO agree that with the sintered one the 13.5 has a significant edge), the 13.5 has to lug significantly more weight, & because of the bonded rotor's heat/gearing issues, you can't gear it as aggressively as a brushed, so it DOES tend to even things(not perfectly, but we're NEVER going to see perfect equality between them, imo). I know no one has to believe me, but this is simply from my own observations & experimentation in my own cars. And I'd still love to see some real-world comparisons ontrack between the sintered 13.5 & some 23 turn brushed motors(I'm suspecting more & more that they would be VERY close in power & characteristics)....
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Old 04-06-2007, 08:23 PM   #149
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Originally Posted by Grizzbob
There is also some correlation to touring car, as far as weight goes. I know that in my TRF415, my car weighs in at about 55.8 oz. with my brushless setup(the GTB & 13.5 with Novak's heat sink on it), but switch it out for my brushed setup(a GTX & stock motor like a Co27, for example) & the weight comes down to 51.8 oz. Even in 1/10 scale cars, 4 ounces is quite noticable a difference, & I think that's a small part of why it can be possible for brushed & the 13.5 to run together(but again, this only works with the bonded rotor, I DO agree that with the sintered one the 13.5 has a significant edge), the 13.5 has to lug significantly more weight, & because of the bonded rotor's heat/gearing issues, you can't gear it as aggressively as a brushed, so it DOES tend to even things(not perfectly, but we're NEVER going to see perfect equality between them, imo). I know no one has to believe me, but this is simply from my own observations & experimentation in my own cars. And I'd still love to see some real-world comparisons ontrack between the sintered 13.5 & some 23 turn brushed motors(I'm suspecting more & more that they would be VERY close in power & characteristics)....
I like the 23t-13.5 Idea If that were the pro stock it would open up 27t for the novice class. And One level before 19t for the novice to shoot for. I think the 23's have bearings as well as the 13.5's?
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Old 04-06-2007, 09:13 PM   #150
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Couldn't we limit the rollout or FDR on a car for novice class? We could do the same thing for stock racing as well with the 13.5 sintered motor. Put a limit on the spur and pinion sizes if it will even things up.

Not sure if this would work but it would be easier and it would teach the new racers about the effects of proper gearing on their cars.
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