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Old 03-16-2007, 09:44 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by jiml
First of all, why are you attacking ROAR without even knowing what they're doing about this? I believe the tech committee is looking into this and are talking to the people who really know about this stuff. As far as restrictions, what restrictions, and who decides? Give ROAR a chance, they'll do the right thing. Be patient.

I've talked to racers from several tracks near NYC. NO ONE IS USING LIPO!!! Now that's just around here. May be different near you. Some tracks are allowing spec brushless in stock though.

Mr Black, I'm glad you're having good success with your LiPo packs. In fact after reading your posts I may buy a pack and try it. I was thinking about a MaxAmps pack but those are soft packaged, and from what I have learned a hard cased pack would be much better.
I'm not attacking ROAR but it's obvious from reading these threads that peoples confidence in ROAR as a sanctioning body have seemed to diminish in just the last year. I'm not saying mine have, I'm not attacking their ability to test and make a competent decision...just saying that they need to look at it and not just read a few "horror stories" about LiPo when there's just as many about NiMh.

Now you're saying you might buy a pack and try it...which means you have absolutely no clue as to what you're talking about in the first place. You've never used them, you have no experience with them. Until you do, please stop spreading heretical gibberish. There are FAR more people who are using them now and running them HARD without incident then there are the VERY few who've had problems. It's simple..if you've never used something..don't tell everyone else they shouldn't based on a FEW "horror stories". Test them yourself, abuse them or treat them with kid gloves, I don't care but try them before you denounce them.

Did you ask the people around NYC why they weren't using LiPo? Is it because the tracks base there rules STRICTLY on ROAR rules? Or did you even ask why? I'm assuming you didn't. It's hard to believe that we're using them in every class from Mini to Mod and NOBODY in the NYC area is using them.
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Old 03-17-2007, 11:51 AM   #62
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Wow you make a lot of assumptions. Ever heard of decaf?

First, ROAR has gone through some tough times, but things are turning around. There are nothing but praises for ROAR coming from the Carpet Nationals. And earlier this year there was quite a hubbub about going to 5 cell. ROAR decided there wasn't enough information to make the switch and psotponed any decision until next year. Smart, no?

Second, I haven't denounced lipo. I've just pointed out some issues that need to be considered. Not to mention the competitive aspects like lipo is lighter and the nominal voltage is higher (7.4V vs 7.2V).

And let me qualify my statement about no one using lipo. No one is using lipo in 1/10 or 1/12 scale. There are people using lipo in the micro cars, mostly because they're allowed in the open classes. RC racing in the NYC area is extremely competitive, and most want to run ROAR legal since this is what they will run if they race elsewhere.

Just because I haven't used something doesn't mean I can't get good information about it. The stories I posted are true, the danger is real. And the key person I got that info from wants to see lipo accepted! I'm not trying to kill lipo, I just want to make sure we take everything into consideration.

Heretical gibberish? Do you worship lipo or something?
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Old 03-17-2007, 12:54 PM   #63
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Is it safe to store a max amp battery or any lipo in a glass jar?
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Old 03-17-2007, 12:58 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml
Wow you make a lot of assumptions. Ever heard of decaf?

First, ROAR has gone through some tough times, but things are turning around. There are nothing but praises for ROAR coming from the Carpet Nationals. And earlier this year there was quite a hubbub about going to 5 cell. ROAR decided there wasn't enough information to make the switch and psotponed any decision until next year. Smart, no?

Second, I haven't denounced lipo. I've just pointed out some issues that need to be considered. Not to mention the competitive aspects like lipo is lighter and the nominal voltage is higher (7.4V vs 7.2V).

And let me qualify my statement about no one using lipo. No one is using lipo in 1/10 or 1/12 scale. There are people using lipo in the micro cars, mostly because they're allowed in the open classes. RC racing in the NYC area is extremely competitive, and most want to run ROAR legal since this is what they will run if they race elsewhere.

Just because I haven't used something doesn't mean I can't get good information about it. The stories I posted are true, the danger is real. And the key person I got that info from wants to see lipo accepted! I'm not trying to kill lipo, I just want to make sure we take everything into consideration.

Heretical gibberish? Do you worship lipo or something?
I'm completely aware that ROAR has gone through tough times and I'm aware of the situation with going to 5-cell. AdrianM filled us in on that and I was in the middle of the threads discussing that farce too. I'm aware of the dangers just like I'm aware of the dangers of NiMh. They are both dangerous so if you're worried about safety then ban them both which would make just as much sense...absolutely none.

So nobody in NY is using LiPo at all? Not even testing them for when they do become legal? I'll bet you people are otherwise they'll be WAY behind once it is legal at major events.

The stories might be real but so are the ones regarding NiMh so why are the ones about LiPo more important? They aren't, it's called politics and I hate political posturing. If you haven't used or tested something yourself but only read about it then your opinion doesn't matter...sorry. Coming onto a forum talking about something you have ZERO actual experience with and spreading your "horror stories" isn't the smartest move. I don't go on Nitro forums and tell them how dangerous nitro is. Why? I've never used it. I've heard stories and read articles to but I wouldn't open my mouth without personal experience.

I do understand ROAR wants whats best for the hobby and the racers and I know they will do the testing and come up with a solution but leaving LiPo out of racing for another year when they are ALREADY making a huge impact on new people to the hobby..would only hurt the hobby more.

Oh, and Yes I worship at the alter of LiPo every morning...don't you? That's right, you still worship the old gods...NiMh. Like Christianity replaced the Roman Pantheon of Gods...so will LiPo replace NiMh.
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Old 03-17-2007, 02:44 PM   #65
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Still making assumption are we?

Sorry, but I do have experience with lipo. I fly airplanes. Now I haven't experienced any problems, but I have seen people who have. When a flier with 30 years experience, 10 years flying electric, tells you what to do, what not to do, and what to watch out for, you listen. You would be stupid not to. I damaged a pack in a crash. Didn't think anything of it. Took it back to my LHS. The owner promptly told me the dangers of damaged packs, and started discharging the pack in a safe place. Fortunately nothing happened. Doesn't mean it couldn't.

Trust me. If lipo becomes legal, and it's an advantage, the NY racers will learn very fast. And it's not that big a difference. It's a different power source that needs different charging procedures. Not much to learn. It would be like a new nickel cell came out.

With most electric races held outside the confines of ROAR, not making them legal yet will have little effect. If your track allows lipo, run it and have fun. ROAR rules are only really enforced at regional and national events, and those clubs that choose to do so. If ROAR were to make lipo legal without considering all information, and then something bad happens, that will do far more damage to the hobby.

I worship no one. They worship me.
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Old 03-17-2007, 04:32 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml
I worship no one. They worship me.
I only make assumptions because you have NEVER said you had any experience with them and if they're alright to fly in planes that have even worse crashes then cars...why are you or anyone else questioning this? I know you want to make sure it's the right decision that's made at the right time. There's no better time.

You and your Ego have a nice time stroking one another.
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Old 03-17-2007, 04:47 PM   #67
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I'm running the Peak 3200 LiPo. When I have to run NiMh, I realy see how much of a pain they are.

Here's to never going back baby!
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Old 03-17-2007, 07:37 PM   #68
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Look at this way. Somebody has set the ground rules. Some are good and some are debatable. But, I happen to like rules. When people follow them, I know what to expect. That doesnt make me ignorant. Or have a bias to old things.

This is my problem with the whole Lipo and brushless stock deal: I would like to be able to go on a road trip to the tracks near me and actually be able to race my stuff. It gives this relatively obscure hobby some credibility.

Now if all the tracks just did whatever they wanted with no regard for the rules that means I will probably need to buy $100 worth of new stuff just to race the same equipment as the locals and I wont make that trip.

True story: We talked brushless & Lipo and 10-15 mains at our track last year. Some guys even bought the Orion cells. But less than half of our racers wanted to switch. At first I was frustrated because I was ready to do it. But after a while, we realized that being 'on the cutting edge' meant that we would be turning away some the better racers just because they wanted to follow the rules.

In 3 months everybody sold their Lipos but the damage was done. It caused so much confuson that everybody switched to 1/8 Buggy. Ironically, nobody has any problems following ROAR rules when it comes to nitro.
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Old 03-17-2007, 08:00 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed237
Look at this way. Somebody has set the ground rules. Some are good and some are debatable. But, I happen to like rules. When people follow them, I know what to expect. That doesnt make me ignorant. Or have a bias to old things.

This is my problem with the whole Lipo and brushless stock deal: I would like to be able to go on a road trip to the tracks near me and actually be able to race my stuff. It gives this relatively obscure hobby some credibility.

Now if all the tracks just did whatever they wanted with no regard for the rules that means I will probably need to buy $100 worth of new stuff just to race the same equipment as the locals and I wont make that trip.

True story: We talked brushless & Lipo and 10-15 mains at our track last year. Some guys even bought the Orion cells. But less than half of our racers wanted to switch. At first I was frustrated because I was ready to do it. But after a while, we realized that being 'on the cutting edge' meant that we would be turning away some the better racers just because they wanted to follow the rules.

In 3 months everybody sold their Lipos but the damage was done. It caused so much confuson that everybody switched to 1/8 Buggy. Ironically, nobody has any problems following ROAR rules when it comes to nitro.
Yes but if nobody takes the stand...nothing changes. If nobody used them and proves they are safe then everybody just listens to the very few horror stories and nothing changes. I'm not going to buy $2000 worth of charges, dischargers..etc...just to keep up with the guy at the track who will. LiPo changes that (for now). I'm not going to buy NiMh. Now that the technology is out there and more and more people ARE USING them, it's really to late to go back. If every track went step by step by ROAR rules then 1/10th scale TCs would be in worse shape then they are (at least locally). That isn't ROARs fault and I'm not attacking them. ROAR doesn't fix pricing nor should they. To keep up with the best guys at the track...first you have to be able to drive...then you need the best stuff to keep up with them. LiPo as well as Brushless takes the gear advantage away. 2 guys, same motors, same batteries...it's about driving and setup...like it should be. LiPo is an easy call and I have confidence that they'll make the right one and make it legal next year.

Oh, and ROAR rules regarding Nitro...well no sh#t they can follow those. Name a single new MAJOR advancement in Nitro technology? I've read the rules regarding Nitro though I don't race it but the rules seem a lot more simple with fewer classes and choices. There's a LOT more choices and a LOT more technological advancement in electric. Not saying it's better, but a completely different world. I do agree on rules but I also think that people need to test new stuff in real world situations rather than just wait for a sanctioning body to make the choice for you. We as the racers and hobbyists NEED to make ourselves heard as to what we want rather then just sit and wait. I'm sure that ROAR officials have lives too and input on new tech and actual test results are appreciated I'm sure. If I were to go to a large race, I'd follow the rules but I won't be going to a major competition until LiPo is allowed. Even the TCS allowed them in 1 class this year and probably most classes next year.
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Old 03-17-2007, 08:54 PM   #70
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Lipo is good for those who choose it, and sub-c is good for those who choose to stick with it. There is really no unfairness to either, with the capacity of sub-c cells these days.

Quality cells wont help if proper use isn't practiced.

A safety proof cell would in part be the inability to short them out, over charge, and over discharge.

Lipo bags and charging bunkers can be good to.

If the inlets to the batteries were different sizes, that could help against shorting. Or reverse plugging into the lipo.

If the battery charger could automatically detect the charge rate per cell (or pack) would help as far as incorrect charging.

And a built in safety mode if the built in balancer isn't plugged in it wont work.

And a detection discharger of some sort would help on discharging.

This is a system that would relieve the fear that the inexperienced racer could use and any one else for that matter. All would be good as far as beginners, and the track directors and race directors could relax. It would be safer.

Lipo will take longer to be excepted because of how careful we have to be with them. How can some thing so maintenance free, need so much more care as far as safety? It will all become the norm as it evolves.

Just some thoughts that we may or may not consider? But if safety is the issue then these are some ideas that might work? If it were offered.
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Old 03-18-2007, 06:53 AM   #71
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Has there been a single case of the orion 4800 or 3200 catching fire? I have personally seen 1 nimh blow, cell by cell over the course of the last year. Now granted, many more people use nimh, but even if 1 orion lipo blew, it would be all over these boards.

The issue of safety for racer's really only comes into play with chargers and discharging the lipo cells. Most of the next generation speedos will have a lipo voltage cutoff (novak, lrp, tekin). The only thing left is the charger. You can buy a $30 orion charger that puts out 3.0 amps (Team Orion Avionics Advantage Park Flight Charger) that will charge lipos in a foolproof way (you can't adjust the current.)

This $100 setup (orion 3200 + charger) could meet the needs of most users, even a racer. You simply run and charge.
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Old 03-18-2007, 09:07 AM   #72
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Some clubs and tracks and RC enthusiats are choosing Lipos/Brushless stock. Great. It sounds like you guys are on to something. Its probably the future. But thats not good enough for you.

Now you're telling everyone else what to do even though you dont offer any assistance with regulations and equipment or provide us with an organization that can.

Sorry, but I'm going to continue racing at tracks that follow the generally accepted rules as they are spelled out by ROAR and I won't exactly be doing it at your expense. You already have your lipos, right?

All that leaves is a stalemate. Those who have switched are never going back and the rest of us are refusing to waste money on illegal batteries and motors.

Maybe in a year or two after these things have been worked out you can brag about being the first to have done it. But in the meantime, the constant attempts to somehow proove that the current equipment is so substandard that its not worth getting into racing is causing more harm than good.

I've got new for you: The amount of time or money you spend RC racing will not change if/when we switch to Lipo and bruhless motors. You will allways be upgrading to the latest Lipos and Brushless motors because the manufacturers will constantly be improving them so they can sell more stuff than they did last year because that's kind of how they make money.
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Old 03-18-2007, 09:17 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed237
All that leaves is a stalemate. Those who have switched are never going back and the rest of us are refusing to waste money on illegal batteries and motors.
Your post lost all credibility with this sentence. I was with you until that, then it became apparent you're just a clever troll.
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Old 03-18-2007, 09:29 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed237
Now you're telling everyone else what to do even though you dont offer any assistance with regulations and equipment or provide us with an organization that can.
First of all, nobody is telling you what to do. We're simply sharing our experiences to help generate awareness. That's how most of us found out about LiPo and brushless, by hearing other people talk about it and trying it for ourselves. And once word spreads, and people start adopting something new, the governing bodies will follow.

If people want to be sheep and blindly follow the rules that are handed down to them, that's fine. It's safe and easy and clearly works for a majority of racers. But, SURPRISE, we're not all sheep. History books are written about people that enact change, not people that follow the crowd.

So, thanks for your input, but I'm going to continue to share my experiences with other people so that they too may be informed of their options, and consider doing something a better way.

The technology can stand on its own merits, but getting the word out is challenging, because R/C is littered with people that don't want to change, and actively (and passively) work against it. I and those like me are their antithesis.
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Old 03-18-2007, 09:47 AM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed237
Some clubs and tracks and RC enthusiats are choosing Lipos/Brushless stock. Great. It sounds like you guys are on to something. Its probably the future. But thats not good enough for you.

Now you're telling everyone else what to do even though you dont offer any assistance with regulations and equipment or provide us with an organization that can.

Sorry, but I'm going to continue racing at tracks that follow the generally accepted rules as they are spelled out by ROAR and I won't exactly be doing it at your expense. You already have your lipos, right?

All that leaves is a stalemate. Those who have switched are never going back and the rest of us are refusing to waste money on illegal batteries and motors.

Maybe in a year or two after these things have been worked out you can brag about being the first to have done it. But in the meantime, the constant attempts to somehow proove that the current equipment is so substandard that its not worth getting into racing is causing more harm than good.

I've got new for you: The amount of time or money you spend RC racing will not change if/when we switch to Lipo and bruhless motors. You will allways be upgrading to the latest Lipos and Brushless motors because the manufacturers will constantly be improving them so they can sell more stuff than they did last year because that's kind of how they make money.
I'm not telling you to change. Nobody is telling you to change. We all are trying to get the word out that they work well, last longer, are more efficient, and safe. We are all tired of misinformation regarding LiPo.

So since we are proponents of LiPo we have to start our own sanctioning body to compete with ROAR? Are you insane...I think that's about the dumbest thing I've ever heard. ROAR is looking at legalizing (possibly) LiPo and we are trying to show what I stated above. I'm not a ROAR Excomm or Electric council member so I can only offer my opinion and can't make regulations so that doesn't make sense either.

That's fine if you don't want to switch. Also, LiPo batteries are not Illegal. They aren't allowed according to ROAR rules at the national level but even ROAR officials have said that at the club level we can allow whatever we would like. ROAR doesn't have rules for Tamiya Mini classes either but many clubs still have that class. Does that make them Illegal...NO. ROAR doesn't have rules for Silvercan sportsman classes but many tracks still have them for new drivers..does that make them also illegal...NO. Again, not a knock at ROAR, just stating some things that clubs are doing for low cost racing to help bring new people to the hobby. Most tracks that allow LiPo haven't banned NiMh...just like most that allow brushless haven't outlawed brushed. Testing them all side by side is the best way to judge what the future will really be and if you want to spend your free time at the track charging, discharging, cycling and massaging every piece of equipment you have then so be it. Have fun. I'm not trying to change you or how you do things...so I really have no idea why you even needed to say anything on this thread. It's about what we'd like to see in the future and not forcing YOU to do anything you don't want to.
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