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Old 03-16-2007, 11:15 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by pheyhoe
In the other thread i heard it was DuraLite. Supposed to be good cells. Can anybody confirm this?
Duralite is a distributor, not an acutal manufacturer. They sell the flighpower lineup of cells which are also manufactured by Enerland. They also sell a li-ion pack that is not manufactured by Enerland.
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Old 03-16-2007, 11:16 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by pheyhoe
I charge my LIPO pack while it is in my car... Its the Trakpower LIPO, similar case to the Prion 4800.. Is it safe?
For the sake of safety you should never charge any battery of any style in your R/C vehicle and never in your hand.

Any energy storage device has the potential of failure do to outside circumstances and it is always better to err to the side of caution.

I personally will not even leave my power drill batteries charging unless I am in the same room and then I always put them on a non flammable surface like a tile counter top etc. I also never leave the toaster or my soldering iron plugged in nor do I leave anything that has a motor in it plugged in like portable fans if possible (the TV has a fan but I cannot get to the plug but it is surge protected and the location is fire protected) I have had several friends who have been fire fighters and it's amazing how many people lose their homes to odd failure of their in home appliances.

Would I feel comfortable charging our LiPo's in my own R/C car yes, but I also do not pay for many R/C things due to factory support. Do I expect any bad things to happen? No but that is not a garauntee. Before I worked in the industry I would never have charged my NiMh or NiCd's in my car out of lessons learned about betteries handed down from my parents. But maybe I am paranoid but maybe this is why we spent so much time making our batteries as safe as they are.

If I had a small child would I allow them to hold a battery of any kind (NiCD/NiMH/LiPo/LIMN/A123/whatever) while it was charging? Hell no!

A charger can fail a perfectly good battery, a power supply can fail a perfectly good charger and a power grid can fail a perfectly good power supply.
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Old 03-16-2007, 11:20 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by pheyhoe
Says they are manufactured in Malaysia on the Trakpower website...?
This can mean one of two things.
1. The cell assembly may be done in Malaysia. On all ThunderPower packs, they say made in the USA - I can guarantee you the cells are not made in the USA and they only do pack assembly.
2. Enerland liscensed their technology to APL in Malaysia. APL uses enerland machinery and technology and Enerland gets a cut of their sales.

There was some website a while ago that took apart the trakpower pack - the pics of the cells are 100% Enerland cells
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Old 03-16-2007, 11:26 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by muahdib4
Exactly, watch the exaggerations...those horror stories...what specific LiPo were they using? The cheap Chinese ones or quality batteries like the ones offered by Orion/Peak? There is a good bit of info on the LiPo Awareness thread that maybe you need to read. I hear horror stories all the time regarding NiMh batteries too but they're legal. Just because something CAN happen doesn't mean it will and there are ways, through rules specifications, to make sure that only quality LiPo batteries are allowed for use. You keep saying things regarding racers knee-jerk acceptance of LiPo but it seems to me that you have a knee-jerk reaction in the opposite direction. Obviously you have a problem with LiPo...let us know what it is. Horror stories and telling us all to not be idiots is not doing anything.
One of the people I have spoken to has been flying RC airplanes for 30 years, is a member of the AMA Hall of Fame, and is an engineer for a defense contracting firm. He gave 2 stories of fellow filers losing their cars to fires started by lipo, one member who had extensive damage to his house from a lipo pack, and he himself had a pack ignite. Fortunately his pack was in a Pyrex dish so he avoided any damage to his home. In all cases they were using packs made from Kokam cells, the same ones Orion is using. This is not a knee jerk reaction. I am pointing out a REAL DANGER with LiPo cells.

Granted, some of the stuff we use in our hobby is also dangerous. Soldering irons, fuel based on nitromethane, motor spray, heck even hobby knives. I'm not against Lipo, I just want to make sure the safety aspect is considered.
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Old 03-16-2007, 11:54 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml
One of the people I have spoken to has been flying RC airplanes for 30 years, is a member of the AMA Hall of Fame, and is an engineer for a defense contracting firm. He gave 2 stories of fellow filers losing their cars to fires started by lipo, one member who had extensive damage to his house from a lipo pack, and he himself had a pack ignite. In all cases they were using packs made from Kokam cells, the same ones Orion is using. This is not a knee jerk reaction. I am pointing out a REAL DANGER with LiPo cells.
This is blanket statement that is incorrect "packs made from Kokam cells, the same ones Orion is using."

These are not the same Kokam cells we use, They may be the same manufacturer sir but they are not the same cells, you are making false claims.

We currently use cells that have not previousely been available to the plane market before we began to use them in our car applications. We also only use the highest level of cells that Kokam makes. They do make lower quality cells for other applications and we do not use those as they are not designed to be used for our purpose and level of safety we require. Kokam had some problems in the past with company's using their cells improperly and packaging them improperly and since then they have focused on being more involved with the company's they deal with to ensure this does not happen going forward. Our Avionics SLPB line of batteries is just as durable when used for the right application as our SLPB Platinum and Carbon Edition packs. I have even powered a Mabushi 540 motor powered R/C car with one of our 1500mAh Lipo Avionics packs with out any issues.
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Old 03-16-2007, 01:09 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by MrBlack

These are not the same Kokam cells we use, They may be the same manufacturer sir but they are not the same cells, you are making false claims.
I stand corrected. My point was the cells used in the incidents I described are not cheap Chinese products. It was not my intention to slight your company.

And I should point out that the person I was talking about is a proponent of LiPo technology. (For those of you in Rio Linda, that means he thinks we should use them) He just wants to make sure people are careful with them. And I don't want something to happen that ruins the hobby for everyone.

Would it be a bad idea for all RC tracks to have a fire extinguisher handy?
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Old 03-16-2007, 02:04 PM   #52
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I would think an extinguisher would be a good idea regardless of LiPo use, especially with today's fragile NiMH being so volatile.

The question is, what kind(s) of extinguishers would be best? Do you have to treat each fire differently based on its cause?
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Old 03-16-2007, 02:12 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml
I stand corrected. My point was the cells used in the incidents I described are not cheap Chinese products. It was not my intention to slight your company.

And I should point out that the person I was talking about is a proponent of LiPo technology. (For those of you in Rio Linda, that means he thinks we should use them) He just wants to make sure people are careful with them. And I don't want something to happen that ruins the hobby for everyone.

Would it be a bad idea for all RC tracks to have a fire extinguisher handy?
No infact I believe they should and I think in most states it would be illegal not to?

I Understand and if I seemed harsh I appoligize I just want to make sure the whole truth comes to the surface as sometimes having the partial story is very damaging even if the intent was not there. I understand you meant no desrespect I am applaud you being a volunteer for our hobby I think often people in your position are under appreciated.
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Old 03-16-2007, 02:13 PM   #54
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Thanks linger,

Might look into buying some kokam/Orion.

These trakpower ones seem to be brilliant at the minute though. Have to see how long they last.
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Old 03-16-2007, 02:44 PM   #55
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Now I'm really concerned: A trusted Lipo manufacturer makes various qualities of cells based upon their application and there is probably no way the average user can tell them apart.

While I feel like I can trust Orion but can I trust the racers around me? Its not like everybody always follows the rules. We've all pited around a guy like Tim Taylor wondering how he has managed to live as long has he has.

It makes me wonder if the exploding batteries are kind of like dog bites. The most common bite is from the German Sheppard because there are so many of them. But the most serious injuries and fatalities are caused by Pit Bulls.
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Old 03-16-2007, 02:49 PM   #56
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Good Point I think just like anything everyone should do the research and try and deal with companies they feel they can trust and that stand behind their product. If you do not trust Orion's product then by all means you should not buy our product. We stand behind what we sell and that is something we feel all manufacturers should do and most of them will. It is just like anything else R/C and beyond it's your money you are investing and it should be toward the product you feel best suits your needs.
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Old 03-16-2007, 03:03 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed237
Now I'm really concerned: A trusted Lipo manufacturer makes various qualities of cells based upon their application and there is probably no way the average user can tell them apart.
This isn't surprising, I imagine there's a good business case for it. Their technology has probably evolved a lot over the years, leading to better safety, etc. I would think it best to discourage people from buying raw cells and using them in their cars. Rather, the cells should be distributed by an R/C company that then discloses the source and the safety information (or rating if such a system is available), and makes them available in a case.

It seems reasonable that all LiPo should be banned initially, and then each individual cell that's proposed for use in R/C cars has to meet certain safety criteria to deem is safe enough for our sport. Perhaps further rules should be put forth about requiring a hard casing, and maybe even develop some standard sizing for the cases so that chassis designers have something to work with.

If we can get standard case design out there, it would be easy enough to OEM them so the battery companies can buy the cells in bulk, match them, solder them up, etc.
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Old 03-16-2007, 03:03 PM   #58
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2c lipo = 6c 4200 nimh 7.2 volts

lipos higher sustsianed voltage
Nimh more intial punch

Nimh Gas vents very toxic and can explode (ive seen it and had hot molten batt guts land on my pit towel and burn a hole in it, Imagine if it landed in your hair)
Lipo Fire very HOT! No explosion just like sitting near the sun!

lipo last longer can be charged over and over during the day no issue
Nimh need to rest and cool down 2 cycles during a race day are fine.

1 lipo for an entire race day (stock)
Nimh at least two packs nimh for a race day

for the money you'll get more from your lipo in a season.
Performance about the same

Get a good lipo charger its very safe haven't had any issues if your read the instructions but like anything else if you don;'t read the instructions you can cause issues.

Give a bonehead something that he does not know how to use and he'll F* up sooner or later.
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Old 03-16-2007, 03:05 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlack
No infact I believe they should and I think in most states it would be illegal not to?

I Understand and if I seemed harsh I appoligize I just want to make sure the whole truth comes to the surface as sometimes having the partial story is very damaging even if the intent was not there. I understand you meant no desrespect I am applaud you being a volunteer for our hobby I think often people in your position are under appreciated.
That's okay. You're pasionate about your product and you don't like people making the wrong assumptions. I can handle that, and I don't mind being proven wrong, the few times that happens

And you and your company should be applauded for being in the forefront to bring this technology to our sport. Brushless plus lipo equals throw your car down and start running. Not 45 minutes of prep time for a 5 minute qualifier.
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Old 03-16-2007, 05:39 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml
That's okay. You're pasionate about your product and you don't like people making the wrong assumptions. I can handle that, and I don't mind being proven wrong, the few times that happens

And you and your company should be applauded for being in the forefront to bring this technology to our sport. Brushless plus lipo equals throw your car down and start running. Not 45 minutes of prep time for a 5 minute qualifier.
Thanks you, I am glad we are now getting what the other is saying
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