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Old 03-15-2007, 10:25 PM   #16
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I have to put about 2200 mAh back into my 3200 packs after running them geared to the very edge with a 13.5 or 4300.

We really haven't seen any difference on the track between LiPo and NiMH in stock and 19T racing (or 13.5 and 10.5). I've heard these batteries will show an advantage in mod, but I've yet to hear someone come out and say they've actually experienced it first hand.
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Old 03-15-2007, 10:39 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
I have to put about 2200 mAh back into my 3200 packs after running them geared to the very edge with a 13.5 or 4300.

We really haven't seen any difference on the track between LiPo and NiMH in stock and 19T racing (or 13.5 and 10.5). I've heard these batteries will show an advantage in mod, but I've yet to hear someone come out and say they've actually experienced it first hand.
I think ....
Their advantage is ,the flat discharge curve the Li-Po process`s..
The motor`s power stay`s the same all the way with out any transition`s to complicate thing`s for the driver on that last minute of the heat..
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Old 03-15-2007, 11:32 PM   #18
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I'm running the Orion platinum 4800's. About a year I would guess. Still never balanced, still running the same, the voltage and run time are so consistent after a run, I can tell you what the charge left in it will be per motor. A 300.00 investment. Aside from brushless the best investment I've made in R/C. I would easily buy 900.00 worth of packs per year. The way I see it I've saved 600.00 dollars this year.
For me they work as good as any pack of sub-c's. And I can finally afford foam tires to race with. I even bought a fancy paint job.
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Old 03-16-2007, 12:32 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Cherry
I think ....
Their advantage is ,the flat discharge curve the Li-Po process`s..
The motor`s power stay`s the same all the way with out any transition`s to complicate thing`s for the driver on that last minute of the heat..
I read an explanation somewhere about the lower IR of the cells coming into play more with mod motors that draw more power. I think I saw Eddie say that burns up motors faster, so maybe if that's the case, it's only beneficial when combined with brushless? I dunno, I'm totally speculating, I wish someone smart would show up in here and set us straight. :-)
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Old 03-16-2007, 01:44 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
I read an explanation somewhere about the lower IR of the cells coming into play more with mod motors that draw more power. I think I saw Eddie say that burns up motors faster, so maybe if that's the case, it's only beneficial when combined with brushless? I dunno, I'm totally speculating, I wish someone smart would show up in here and set us straight. :-)

just my opinion
the voltage is a bit less than matched 4200 Ib....

Lower voltage means a mod motor runs cooler ....
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Old 03-16-2007, 06:28 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml
I've been talking to airplane guys about LiPo, and each one has a horror story about packs igniting. But they also admit LiPo cells have gotten much better than the early days.

Nickel batteries explode, that is when enough pressure builds up inside the cell the end cap pops off, usually with a loud bang. Saw one at my local track do this a few weeks ago. And if nickel packs are shorted they get very hot and usually start smoking, but the cells themselves don't iginite, anything in the vicinity will.

LiPo cells don't explode, they ignite, that is they begin to burn themselves. And that fire is extremely hot! So anything around it is going to get torched pretty good. Like a wooden workbench, or a car's interior.

There's no doubt LiPo will make it's way into cars, but let's not be complete idiots about this.
Yep, let's not be complete idiots...let's start by not saying something about people being complete idiots for starters. LiPo is already being used at the club level almost everywhere so there is no reason that it shouldn't be considered and legalized by ROAR with some restrictions. ROAR can approve specific batteries just like they do with NiMh. It shouldn't be any more difficult then testing the NiMhs every year...you do actually test them right? That way, the cheap, junk cells won't be allowed and the good ones such as the Orion/Peak CAN be. I just fear that ROAR will do nothing with LiPo again for 2008 and racer confidence in the major sanctioning body for the U.S. will continue to plummet.
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Old 03-16-2007, 06:51 AM   #22
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We have a bunch of guys running LIPOs at our track and not one has caught fire. I have seen NIMH melt chassis already though.

I have been using the same LIPO battery in my 4WD for well over a half year already and not one problem. And I have had some pretty horrific crashes too. This is a maxamps battery, so it isn't even hard cased. Not only that, it doesn't fit in my battery tray properly so it even came out once and was rubbing against my tire. The battery is pretty light but you can add weight to counter-act that. This battery is battle worn and still shines like it did when I bought it. I have only used the LIPO with novak GTB and 5.5r and the mamba 5700kv and now the mamba 7700kv. I use the same battery all day, charging between heats for up to 3 heats and 1 main and practice! I couldn't do that with my NIMH, I'd have to rotate between at least 3 packs.

LIPOs are up to the challenge and it is just a matter of a year or two before ROAR legalizes it because it is so mainstream and safe.
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Old 03-16-2007, 08:25 AM   #23
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Most of the discussion seems centered around Racing and ROAR. I understand that aspect. But is the real problem that big $$$$$$$$$$$$ have been invested by everyone in the sport on pit equipment and batts. Even the 'dangers' stories seem to be red hearing issues. LiPo's don't need a $400 dollar charger.
If somebody invented the $10 motor/esc that was competitive and was good for 5 years, would it be welcomed or shunned. Overnight most everything would be obsolete. How would you vote? Protect your investment and those companies that are the foundation of the sport. Or.... technology will always move forward, those that change will prosper. If it cheaper and better it's always the right move?
I'm a new person in the hobby. The fact that I can get a brushless motor,ESC and 2.4ghz radio...all state of the art and spend less on all the hi-tech pit equipment, is one of the main reasons I decided to jump into the hobby at this point.
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Old 03-16-2007, 08:30 AM   #24
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The track here started racing 10.5 BL with 3200 lipo packs. One racer tried to race in this class using 4300mAh top-shelf NIMH. The race typically started out with the NIMH car leading for the first 1:00min and the lipo cars dominating for the last 2:00min. The only issue that the NIMH racer has is that he feels that he is losing at the end is the weight difference. The track decided that this class could weight in at 2oz. less than ROAR foam tire minimum. He can't get his car down to that weight using NIMH while the lipo cars only have to add enough weight to balance their cars. It does seem that the flatter discharge curve of the lipo may have an advantage in this class up here.
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Old 03-16-2007, 08:48 AM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by catcars
Most of the discussion seems centered around Racing and ROAR. I understand that aspect. But is the real problem that big $$$$$$$$$$$$ have been invested by everyone in the sport on pit equipment and batts. Even the 'dangers' stories seem to be red hearing issues. LiPo's don't need a $400 dollar charger.
If somebody invented the $10 motor/esc that was competitive and was good for 5 years, would it be welcomed or shunned. Overnight most everything would be obsolete. How would you vote? Protect your investment and those companies that are the foundation of the sport. Or.... technology will always move forward, those that change will prosper. If it cheaper and better it's always the right move?
I'm a new person in the hobby. The fact that I can get a brushless motor,ESC and 2.4ghz radio...all state of the art and spend less on all the hi-tech pit equipment, is one of the main reasons I decided to jump into the hobby at this point.
This has been getting talked about a little more lately, but I think it's largely overlooked. People have an emotional attachment to their equipment, since it helps define them as a racer. Guys get custom face plates for the GFX's and things like that because they're proud, and it means something to them. Those things are expensive, and they no doubt had to make some kind of sacrifice to acquire them, which furthers their personal feelings about all that gear.

And I don't fault anybody for that, it's perfectly understandable, and I'd probably be the same way. Unfortunately, it's not a good enough reason to halt the adoption of new technology. Plus, whose gonna buy your used gear once its obsoleted? I mean, I guess there's a LiPo update coming out for a GFX, but if you don't need any of its other features, are you really going to lug it around instead of a tiny LiPo charger? It kind of sucks for guys heavily vested into NiMH and brushed racing, but like the motor and battery companies, they'll either adapt and thrive or wither away.

There are valid arguments against LiPo, and then there's the arguments driven by ulterior motives. The trick is separating the two, which usually isn't that hard. :-)
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Old 03-16-2007, 09:10 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml
I've been talking to airplane guys about LiPo, and each one has a horror story about packs igniting. But they also admit LiPo cells have gotten much better than the early days.

Nickel batteries explode, that is when enough pressure builds up inside the cell the end cap pops off, usually with a loud bang. Saw one at my local track do this a few weeks ago. And if nickel packs are shorted they get very hot and usually start smoking, but the cells themselves don't iginite, anything in the vicinity will.

LiPo cells don't explode, they ignite, that is they begin to burn themselves. And that fire is extremely hot! So anything around it is going to get torched pretty good. Like a wooden workbench, or a car's interior.

There's no doubt LiPo will make it's way into cars, but let's not be complete idiots about this.
Actually we did recieve a call from a gentleman who had a battery explode while charging in the front seat (not one of ours) and shoot a hole into his dash as the cell continued to burn and burn his truck with it, It was a NiMH cell that caused the damage not a lipo. Their was also a gentle men on here that burned up his car again NiMH. We have sold both NiMH and LiPo over the last 2 years and we have yet to have a single report of one of our LiPo batteries causing personal or property damage, I wish I could say the same about NiMh. Infact we now are seeing many people switch to our LiPo because they are safer.

YES, OUR LIPO BATTERIES ARE SAFER THEN TODAYS NiMH. You can quote me on that.
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Old 03-16-2007, 09:24 AM   #27
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I personally had 2 Pulsar comp chargers, Smart tray and Zero thirty just to maintain my batteries. I sold it all got an Ice and 2 3200 packs with money still in my pocket and less headachs at the end of the day, plus less stuff I have to carry to the track. For me thats a win win.
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Old 03-16-2007, 09:38 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlack
Actually we did recieve a call from a gentleman who had a battery explode while charging in the front seat (not one of ours) and shoot a hole into his dash as the cell continued to burn and burn his truck with it, It was a NiMH cell that caused the damage not a lipo. Their was also a gentle men on here that burned up his car again NiMH. We have sold both NiMH and LiPo over the last 2 years and we have yet to have a single report of one of our LiPo batteries causing personal or property damage, I wish I could say the same about NiMh. Infact we now are seeing many people switch to our LiPo because they are safer.

YES, OUR LIPO BATTERIES ARE SAFER THEN TODAYS NiMH. You can quote me on that.
Lipo vs NimH aside for a moment, you've got to ask yourself why they were charging them in a car in the first place ?!?!?!!!
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Old 03-16-2007, 09:58 AM   #29
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Oh yeah trust me I asked, We even got a call resently from a person who was angry because they put a cheap stick pack in a Limited edition Tamiya Porche chassis and one that most simply collect as they are so rare and expensive. Well he was upset because he managed to blow up his cheap stick pack while charging it in his car while his young son was holding the car!!! He was using a really cheap charger and it apparently over charged the cells causing the failure which melted his chassis and caused battery "juice" the splatter all over his young son and was pissed at us??

I questioned why he would charge ANY battery while it was in his vehicle and allow a small child to hold any charging battery which his responce is everyone does it in his area.

I didn't even get a chance to ask him why he was using the lowest grade cell to power one of the most expensive chassis on the market as he was so upset that I would not buy him a new car because his charger (not one of ours) failed our battery he then hung up.

He said he has been doing this for 19yrs.!!

Just a side note to all potential customers whether you have been doing something for 1 or 50 years it does not mean you have any more or less chance of a failure occuring with any product be it R/C or home appliance etc. We work very hard to avoid any failures but they can still occur randomly, and if anything the fact that using a certain product type for a long time would mathimatically give you a higher chance if any of having a failure not less. Also when you call a an R/C company and tell them then while you are yelling at them "I have been doing this for __yrs." it gets about the same respect as telling a cop your taxes pay his salary.
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Old 03-16-2007, 10:18 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muahdib4
Yep, let's not be complete idiots...let's start by not saying something about people being complete idiots for starters. LiPo is already being used at the club level almost everywhere so there is no reason that it shouldn't be considered and legalized by ROAR with some restrictions. ROAR can approve specific batteries just like they do with NiMh. It shouldn't be any more difficult then testing the NiMhs every year...you do actually test them right? That way, the cheap, junk cells won't be allowed and the good ones such as the Orion/Peak CAN be. I just fear that ROAR will do nothing with LiPo again for 2008 and racer confidence in the major sanctioning body for the U.S. will continue to plummet.
First of all, why are you attacking ROAR without even knowing what they're doing about this? I believe the tech committee is looking into this and are talking to the people who really know about this stuff. As far as restrictions, what restrictions, and who decides? Give ROAR a chance, they'll do the right thing. Be patient.

I've talked to racers from several tracks near NYC. NO ONE IS USING LIPO!!! Now that's just around here. May be different near you. Some tracks are allowing spec brushless in stock though.

Mr Black, I'm glad you're having good success with your LiPo packs. In fact after reading your posts I may buy a pack and try it. I was thinking about a MaxAmps pack but those are soft packaged, and from what I have learned a hard cased pack would be much better.
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