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Old 03-19-2007, 10:05 PM   #76
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I am not comparing any apple to an orange, I am simply responding to the comment that the lithium batteries have been used in laptops, cell phones, etc with very few problems.....my post was simply to say, that is hardly the case. The problems have been significant and costly for the companies.

And like sub c cells, I will make money off lipo when the day comes......I already sell the transmitter, reciever, and mini packs.....

So, you forgot to read the statement above mine.....I was in no way attempting to compare our packs to the other types....

I have no agenda in this.....I simply just point out the facts. Lipo, sub c, fuel cell.....I will still sell batteries one or another....the only thing that concerns me is solar powered.....

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Old 03-19-2007, 10:06 PM   #77
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Current laptop batteries are actually Lithium-Ion as opposed to the Lithium-Ion Polymer (LiPo) cells used in RC Car batteries. Lithium Ion uses a liquid electrolyte while LiPos utilises a solid electrolyte which is safer (although still flammable). Two distinct types of cells. Plenty of information out there on the web regarding these cells.
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Old 03-19-2007, 10:09 PM   #78
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Well, thats partially true.....mulitple companies in the plane market have or plan to reintroduce LiON cells.....along with the Lithium Maganese.....there are 3 types of cells competing for the market....which doesn't help the cause either....Lipo is the leader right now, but that may change if the other packs can be cheaper or better performance or safer or ?? or ??...

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Old 03-19-2007, 10:21 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EddieO
Well, I dunno about few problems...

Just google sony laptop batteries recall......been going on since 1998 with various reasons, but all safety related.....Dell alone recalled 4.1 million lithium based batteries....Apple had a monster recall, as 2 of my 3 laptops at the time got new batteries...

Just a snippet from one of the articles

"The safety agency knows of 339 incidents in which lithium batteries used in laptops and cell phones not just Dell products overheated between 2003 and 2005, Wolfson said.

339 issues out of at least 6 million batteries in use at that time. That is not a big number considering probably 90% of the people using those batteries have no idea of battery safety and proper care and maintenance of said batteries.
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Old 03-19-2007, 10:30 PM   #80
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There was only a few comments made regarding the cell balancing. Devices which use a single cell such as cell phones operating at around 3.7V do not have any concerns with regards to balancing but whenever a raw cell rated at 3.7V is used in series with another to gain the 7.4V you have to be safety conscious. Devices which recharge li-ion cells typically will have built in safety measures in the case of a component within the charger failing plus the pack like ones used in phones should have a built in pcb with added protect circuitry for overcharging, overdischarging and short circuit protection.

We as racers will overstress cells and this is where safety features within the packs should be used. I am against LiPoly at this point knowing all too well how much energy is available in a small pack. Now think of how some racers are very stupid when it comes to RC. Do you really want to sit next to Joe Smoe charging a LiPoly with a non-LiPo charger? I do not!

LiPo cells have issues when they are overdischarged under 3.0V (could be slightly different value) and what if someone shorts the leads? Whats gonna happen? How many of you have shorted cells on accident? NiMH do vent and disassemble but typically they are safe to use. They take abuse.

I am not sure I fully trust the chargers out there made for RC to be relaible enough to recharge Lithium based cells/packs. I had to replace my laptop battery recently and there was NO WAY I was buying a noname battery from a vendor other than the manufacturer of the laptop for these reasons. They have 3 or 4 cells in series and then the same if not more in parallel. True they are cylindrical but they are still Lithium based. Be careful and know what you are buying and be aware of what the warnings are.
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Old 03-19-2007, 10:30 PM   #81
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Heh, well....please read the 339 incidents KNOWN....often, many go unreported....not to mention how many were avoided because of the recall...


And what care and maintenance or safety stuff is a consumer supposed to do with a laptop battery? They don't have dischargers or equalizing trays.

And the failures according to all the reports I read, had NOTHING to do with the consumer. It was multiple errors in the production process....the battery would of failed regardless of care or maintenance. A local lady at the apple store I shop at, had hers fail and burn her couch 24 hours after purchase...must been bad care and maintenance in those 24 hours that caused it.

I think what people are trying to point out, is there are saftey concerns with lithium based tech regardless of which version you are using......they are a completely different animal that the NIMH or NICD counterparts.....

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Old 03-19-2007, 10:35 PM   #82
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One note on laptops. They have built in charge and monitoring circuitry plus the pack itself has onboard circuitry for balancing and protection.
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Old 03-19-2007, 10:39 PM   #83
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Exactly, so what saftey and maintenance is being referred to....??

I would also like to further on rinkrat's comments....spot on man, spot on...

Think how many hack jobs and such we see in the pits on a daily basis....people can't even do simple things right and now we have something in the pits that can burn a house down with very very strict safety requirements....dunno if I want to pit with the guy either....let alone get on the plane with him and his improperly cared for lipo packs in luggage compartment.


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Old 03-19-2007, 10:42 PM   #84
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I heard recently that the airlines may be placing restrictions on li-ion packs carried on planes for safety reasons. Not really sure what the plan is but the industry has strict rules governing the cargo it carries. Do you really want to be on a plane and have a Li-ion pack catch fire? Less likely on a plane than in our pits though
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:46 PM   #85
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Its when people start talking about worst case scenarios, that cause people to reject lipo. if we keep creeping people out with these worst case scenarios that are very unlikely, then we'll never get to the future!

lipo is a major improvement to nimh, you know what makes it so. but lipo is different from nimh, obviously. both chemestries need to be treated with the care they require, and they need to be respected. its when they are disrespected that bad things happen. people need to understand that thier lipo's for cars arent just going spontaniously explode, and leave a smoking crater. only if they mistreat the lipos, will they do bad things.

basicly, i feel lipo's are better than nimh, and should be used. but its new technology that needs to be treated with more respect than nimh. if you respect your lipo, it will be fine.
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Old 03-20-2007, 06:40 AM   #86
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I've started sending letters to congress...it's recently been brought to my attention that people are all idiots. Since they can't be trusted to use LiPo batteries safely then I'm going to lobby to have gasoline banned from the United States. Someone could potentially mishandle it and hurt themselves or others. I mean, the gas cap is right there and matches, lighters and oil-soaked rags are easy to get. We can't let this happen. Also, just look at all the trees...they're made of wood and we all know what happens when wood catches on fire...that's right...it gets hot. These fires could also spread which is not good for people, so I'm also lobbying to have all the trees and plants destroyed and have the entire country paved over. Of course, all the wood houses will have to go too. It's just to big a risk, really, just look at all the lightning that happens. They could all explode at any minute. Then we have to go after ALL household cleaning products. I heard that the right mix could be explosive. People can't be trusted to handle them safely. They might accidentally get just the right mix while scrubbing the toilet and ..... KABOOM ..... there goes the Tidy Bowl man. Don't even get me started on fertilizers and dry ice...we all saw what that did in Oklahoma City.

BAN IT BAN IT BAN IT BAN IT!!!!!

We can then all sit in our little padded rooms since we're all to stupid to take care of ourselves. Sounds nice doesn't it.
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Old 03-20-2007, 07:00 AM   #87
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Yeah, let the government handle it, they do such a good job. For what it's worth, California requires our nitro fuel to be sold in steel containers. No risk of steel containers creating sparks if they get dropped on Pavement or anything.

I've personally seen the newer LiMn stuff get overcharged. NO PROBLEMS... They test the high end LiPo's that are used in the handtool industry and the cells that Orion uses are tested for overcharge. They even puncture the cells with a freaking nail.

The problem is that some of the cells are just plain junk. If you use inexpensive cells that don't have any quality control you're asking for trouble. All cells used in the hobby should be tested.
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Old 03-20-2007, 07:06 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rinkrat99
There was only a few comments made regarding the cell balancing. Devices which use a single cell such as cell phones operating at around 3.7V do not have any concerns with regards to balancing but whenever a raw cell rated at 3.7V is used in series with another to gain the 7.4V you have to be safety conscious. Devices which recharge li-ion cells typically will have built in safety measures in the case of a component within the charger failing plus the pack like ones used in phones should have a built in pcb with added protect circuitry for overcharging, overdischarging and short circuit protection.

We as racers will overstress cells and this is where safety features within the packs should be used. I am against LiPoly at this point knowing all too well how much energy is available in a small pack. Now think of how some racers are very stupid when it comes to RC. Do you really want to sit next to Joe Smoe charging a LiPoly with a non-LiPo charger? I do not!

LiPo cells have issues when they are overdischarged under 3.0V (could be slightly different value) and what if someone shorts the leads? Whats gonna happen? How many of you have shorted cells on accident? NiMH do vent and disassemble but typically they are safe to use. They take abuse.

I am not sure I fully trust the chargers out there made for RC to be relaible enough to recharge Lithium based cells/packs. I had to replace my laptop battery recently and there was NO WAY I was buying a noname battery from a vendor other than the manufacturer of the laptop for these reasons. They have 3 or 4 cells in series and then the same if not more in parallel. True they are cylindrical but they are still Lithium based. Be careful and know what you are buying and be aware of what the warnings are.
So all in all you are against morons as opposed to the batteries then? I certainly wouldn't want to pit next to someone charging their NiMH packs at 9A trying to get the highest possible voltage out of them. Especially after they forgot to balance them and one cell goes off like a shotgun next to me. Or like a recent problem in the trader feedback where the guy shipped loose packs and they shorted. Decent amount of damage there as well. To reiterate - Morons are the problem.

At least Lipo packs are coming with certain safety features that help prevent the more common problems. Orion's will burn a fuse on short circuits and since they have no exposed batteries on the sides to accidentally short they are unlikely to do so. How many safety features do your sideXside configured NiMH batteries have?

It's pretty simple really - as a lipo owner you have a set of rules you follow; just like driving a car, storing a firearm, etc.

Charge with the right settings
Don't leave alone while charging
Charge in a place that in the event of fire, it won't spread
Discharge no lower than safe voltage - cutoffs
Store in a fire safe place - Ammo boxes are cheap and perfect for this
Don't throw a damaged pack in your car or house
In the event of a pack getting damaged or if it swells - suck it up and destroy it.
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Old 03-20-2007, 07:12 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muahdib4
I've started sending letters to congress...it's recently been brought to my attention that people are all idiots. Since they can't be trusted to use LiPo batteries safely then I'm going to lobby to have gasoline banned from the United States. Someone could potentially mishandle it and hurt themselves or others. I mean, the gas cap is right there and matches, lighters and oil-soaked rags are easy to get. We can't let this happen. Also, just look at all the trees...they're made of wood and we all know what happens when wood catches on fire...that's right...it gets hot. These fires could also spread which is not good for people, so I'm also lobbying to have all the trees and plants destroyed and have the entire country paved over. Of course, all the wood houses will have to go too. It's just to big a risk, really, just look at all the lightning that happens. They could all explode at any minute. Then we have to go after ALL household cleaning products. I heard that the right mix could be explosive. People can't be trusted to handle them safely. They might accidentally get just the right mix while scrubbing the toilet and ..... KABOOM ..... there goes the Tidy Bowl man. Don't even get me started on fertilizers and dry ice...we all saw what that did in Oklahoma City.

BAN IT BAN IT BAN IT BAN IT!!!!!

We can then all sit in our little padded rooms since we're all to stupid to take care of ourselves. Sounds nice doesn't it.
Perfect use of sarcasm. SARCASM FTW
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Old 03-20-2007, 07:49 AM   #90
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Kuzo

I agree people are morons and thats a fact!

I agree if we choose to use LiPo's then the distributer should be the ones having some sort of third party safety approval on the pack such as Underwriters Labs. Yes cheaper cells have very poor quality control and thats a fact but like someone said SONY had issues and they have very good quality control. Cells do just internally short just like NiMH do. This is an issue which no safety feature can eliminate except for the cell venting which may or may not help. The safety measures I talk about are within the pack itself which would almost certainly hurt performance or add tremedous cost. Typically, the packs are protected with internal circuit boards with protect circuits onboard to eliminate potential Overcharge (Voltage), Overdischarge (Current), Short Circuit (external).

I would be more apt to use LiPo's if three things happen;
1) Raw cells are approved by a third party test agency
2) RC Pack is approved by third party test agency
3) RC Pack is provided with a special proprietary connector that allows use of a single charger/balancer similar to whats inside a laptop.

This all equals a huge rise in cost and possibly a performance decrease
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