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Old 03-17-2007, 11:15 PM   #46
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According to Kokam: Team Orion USA. Warning list that comes with a 4800 lipo pack says.

The platinum lipo pack should under NO CIRCUMSTANCES be discharged after use.
It will not equalize it. Instead it will permanently damage it.

For the experts: The cut off voltage for discharge is 2.7V per cell. If discharged below this level, there is a irreversible chemical reaction that will lead to the destruction of the cell. Therefore we recommend setting a cut off (if your controller allows you to do so) of 3.0V.
NOTE: Lipo batteries do not have a memory affect. You can use it to any charge state without risking loss of capacity or power. In fact, the useful life will increase if discharged to 80% only.

For the experts: Kokam recommends limiting the discharge of the battery to 80% DoD(depth of discharge). Under these conditions the cycle life of the battery is greater than 1000 cycles.

Cell balancing is a way to ensure that your platinum lipo will deliver the maximum performance and capacity over a long period of time.
With Kokams unique battery design, balancing is not absolutely required. However, it will insure you to have more fun for a longer time.

For the experts: In the platinum lipo pack, two lithium polymer modules are placed in series. When fully charged, each has an open circuit voltage of 3.7 volts. After several charge/discharge cycles, one of the two modules may exhibit a slghtly lower voltage, which means it is not 100% charged. This unbalance means the battery will deliver less capacity than if both cells were 100% full. Balancing ensures that both modules are 100% charged.

Yes: Kokam batteries are safe if you closely, and carefully, follow the instructions and handling precautions. However, if you do not respect the warnings and follow the instructions closely,there is a risk of explosion, fire, smoke emission, and poisoning. However,Kokam Lipo is the safest battery in the world based on Kokams own testing.

Last edited by UN4RACING; 03-17-2007 at 11:53 PM.
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Old 03-18-2007, 02:58 PM   #47
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Syndrome,

First off I want to say that I appreciate you trying to educate people about the safety concerns with lipo cells. I feel like you are trying to provide the facts. Some of my customers have pointed out this thread as something I should get involved in. I don’t have a problem getting involved and helping people understand the dos and don’ts of lipos. However, I don’t think that your statements regarding different manufacturers and cells are facts. They are opinions stated as fact. Judging our pack quality based on price is simply not fair. Here are a few other things to consider…

1. Do you think that having a hard case is a good idea? Here is what we have found. We have considered doing this on our packs but, if something goes wrong with the pack and a cell puffs up, how will you know it? You can not see through the hard case. You won’t know till the pack basically explodes the hard cover or ignites into flames. Being able to see the cells is a huge safety feature of MaxAmps packs.
2. Also, is it really fair to say that since a cell is from China then it is lower quality? You said yourself that you have not visited all of the factories in China. As you can imagine, we get test cells from all different manufactures on a weekly basis. I agree that there are a ton of overrated low quality lipos out there. However, our cells are the best I have ever tested.
3. We build all of the packs here in the USA. If you have ever put a pack build in Korea side by side with our packs then you would see why we build them here in the USA. Our pack quality is second to none. Our cell quality is also 2nd to none.
4. Our 6000mah pack weighs less than what you consider a “top tier” 4800 pack. They are heavy and hold lower voltage under load than comparable MaxAmps packs.
5. Our price is so low because there is no middle man between us and the customer. We get the cells directly from the manufacturer, build them here in the USA and offer direct pricing to our customer. We could charge twice as much if it would make you feel like our pack were then “top teir”. We prefer to save the customer some money rather than line a distributor’s pockets.
6. We also offer a balancing tap on all of our packs so that the customers can check the balance of the pack without having to make some sort of adapter like they would have to do with other packs.
7. On top of all this… We offer a 3 year 300 cycle warranty. No other manufacturer even comes close. We not only build the best lipo product on the market but we back it up.

Again, I am not trying to start an argument. I just want people to know that there are 2 sides to every story. I hope that this thread can stay on track and be informative for the average RC enthusiast.

Best Regards,

Austin
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Old 03-18-2007, 03:09 PM   #48
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I've tried MaxAmps lipos and I they are quality stuff.
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Old 03-18-2007, 03:22 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by austinelse
1. Do you think that having a hard case is a good idea?
Just for the record, Orion/Peak Race Spec 3200mah packs have two hard shells that meet in the middle, If the pack swells you will notice.

I can appreciate good deals and that is why I didn't speak negativly about MaxAmps packs as I haven't used any. I run TC and wouldn't risk a side impact that could cause the pack to get punctured.

I hope that MaxAmps woudl reconsider a hard shell simular to Orion/Peak's as they not only fit better into the TC's but give a little piece of mind.

Glad to see another manufactorer on here giving facts.
We sure could use more of that on here.....LOL

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Old 03-18-2007, 03:30 PM   #50
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To puncture the shell of a lipo pack you would need a very big impact. The only way I see that happening is if you don't strap the battery down and you go around a corner (high speed now) and the pack comes out and hits the wall, how many times does that happen? Then the other I could see is if someone else you're racing with decides a foam bumper is not good enough and replaces with with a metal bumper then he t-bones you. But if the case on the Orion cells are thin enough for you to know if a cell has puffed up then I would think it would be easy for the same situations that would damage the other cells to damage the Orion cells.
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Old 03-18-2007, 04:09 PM   #51
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Quote:
Syndrome,

First off I want to say that I appreciate you trying to educate people about the safety concerns with lipo cells. I feel like you are trying to provide the facts. Some of my customers have pointed out this thread as something I should get involved in. I don’t have a problem getting involved and helping people understand the dos and don’ts of lipos. However, I don’t think that your statements regarding different manufacturers and cells are facts. They are opinions stated as fact. Judging our pack quality based on price is simply not fair. Here are a few other things to consider…
First off...LOL...the "facts" that Syndrome re-posted here are from "Linger" and his posts clearly reflect that. Linger is in the battery business, LiPo specifically and not a representative (to my knowledge) of any R/C-specific company. Just a battery industry guy with a BUNCH of experience.

FYI -- you can definitely see when an orion cell puffs up...even a little. Next question?
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Old 03-18-2007, 04:15 PM   #52
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Austin,

Thank you for chiming in, it's much appreciated. I was actually reposting something written by someone else to try and get the ball rolling in this thread, so I'll have to defer to him to respond if he wishes.
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Old 03-18-2007, 05:38 PM   #53
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I had a MaxAmps 6000 and it was an awesome pack. I just don't like how the wires come out of the side and I did get mine dented in a small crash 2 weeks after I got it. So, first hand I have tried both batteries. I need/want the protection, and the cleaner and easier connections makes a huge difference.

The hard shell case easily comes apart on the Peak/Orion pack, so any puffy cell would separate the case.
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Old 03-19-2007, 01:50 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
It may seem silly to repost stuff here, but I'm hoping this thread can turn into a resource for people seeking the truth about LiPo use in R/C cars, so I'm going to put anything pertinent in here, kind of like a FAQ.
If you want this to be a FAQ, may I suggest that you just continually edit your first post in this thread with links to pertinent info? If you click the "Post #" in the corner of each post, it will take you to a page showing just that post; you could link to these with different titles.

...just a suggestion to clean all this up .
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Old 03-19-2007, 09:18 AM   #55
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First off let me say Max Amps I believe makes a good product and I would not speak negatively at their specific product. In fact if I was looking for a lower cost option to our battery I would consider theirs.

I will only address the statements being expressed toward our product. I am not hear to argue just to explain why it is we do what we do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinelse
Do you think that having a hard case is a good idea?
Yes I think it is a very good idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinelse
Here is what we have found. We have considered doing this on our packs but, if something goes wrong with the pack and a cell puffs up, how will you know it? You can not see through the hard case. You won’t know till the pack basically explodes the hard cover or ignites into flames. Being able to see the cells is a huge safety feature of MaxAmps packs.
Iif done properly like our own, any cell puffing is immediatley known I would argue more so then a simple shrink wrap pack where some minor swelling can be hard to detect. With our hard case it becomes very clear when things expaned if if by a couple of millimeters. The case not only acts as protection but as a gauge. And our packs have yet to have one report of explosion, ingnition or flames.

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinelse
We build all of the packs here in the USA. If you have ever put a pack build in Korea side by side with our packs then you would see why we build them here in the USA. Our pack quality is second to none. Our cell quality is also 2nd to none.
This is a blanket statement and I have seen both products and I would very much dissagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinelse
Our 6000mah pack weighs less than what you consider a “top tier” 4800 pack. They are heavy and hold lower voltage under load than comparable MaxAmps packs.
This is a moot point his study shows one way ours shows the other.

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinelse
Our price is so low because there is no middle man between us and the customer. We get the cells directly from the manufacturer, build them here in the USA and offer direct pricing to our customer. We could charge twice as much if it would make you feel like our pack were then “top teir”. We prefer to save the customer some money rather than line a distributor’s pockets.
We actually will sell our LiPo batteries direct as well under our Peak Racing line and yes we also support going through distributions channels as this helps support the Hobby industry and the retail chain is the same chain that supports many of our countries tracks, which we believe are worth keeping around. We try to offer the best of both worlds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinelse
We also offer a balancing tap on all of our packs so that the customers can check the balance of the pack without having to make some sort of adapter like they would have to do with other packs.
Our battery requires and adapter yes however we also have the balancing plugs in a user friendly design allowing the use of a simple volt meter to see the cell perfomance and no harness is needed. This also allows the packs to be charged 1 cell at a time if the user would rather not invest in a balancer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by austinelse
On top of all this… We offer a 3 year 300 cycle warranty. No other manufacturer even comes close. We not only build the best lipo product on the market but we back it up.
We also back up our product however we do not put a cycle life or time span on it.

We have had our product out for almost two years now and though we rarely if ever recieved a failed pack we always stand behind our product and replace it if the cell has been deemed faulty. On many instances even when the user admitted misshandling which led to the damage we have replaced or given them a lo-cost replacement option. This is our policy on all of our products not just LiPo's
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Old 03-19-2007, 09:30 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
As more racers discover the benefits and convenience of using LiPo batteries in R/C cars, clubs and other racing venues find themselves under further pressure from their racers to allow these batteries in races. LiPo batteries raise concerns about safety, and unfortunately, there's a lot of misinformation being passed around about these batteries, which often causes them to be dismissed as "too dangerous." This is clearly not the case, as these batteries are used in everything from cell phones to laptop computers to toothbrushes.

My hope with this thread is to create awareness about LiPo batteries, and clear up many of the common misconceptions about their safety. Ideally, this could become a resource for track owners that are considering whether or not to allow the use these batteries as well as racers that have concerns about them.

To get things started, I'm going to repost some information provided by R/C Tech member "linger" a few days ago. He is what you may consider an industry expert, and has a lot insight on the topic.

IF YOU READ NOTHING ELSE IN THIS THREAD, PLEASE AT LEAST READ THE NEXT POST SO THAT YOU MAY BETTER UNDERSTAND LIPO BATTERY SAFETY.

Was Sony Lipo or Ion?
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Old 03-19-2007, 09:37 AM   #57
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Here you go:

Quote:
Sony said the recalls of lithium-ion batteries will boost its costs by 51 billion yen ($429 million) in the July-September period. Sony spokesman Takashi Uehara said the 51 billion yen figure doesn't include "provisions for possible lawsuits" suggesting costs may actually grow.
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Old 03-19-2007, 09:39 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nexus Racing
If you want this to be a FAQ, may I suggest that you just continually edit your first post in this thread with links to pertinent info? If you click the "Post #" in the corner of each post, it will take you to a page showing just that post; you could link to these with different titles.

...just a suggestion to clean all this up .
Good call, I'll get on it.
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:46 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tire Chunker
Was Sony Lipo or Ion?
First, Sony has one of THE best quality control on their cells. The Sony recall sent shockwaves throughout the industry since the perception from industry insiders is "if Sony can have problems, then so can we". Most of the lower tier manufacturers would not have taken the high road and done an expensive recall based off approximately 10 failues in a couple hundred million cells.

Sony does make a "high discharge" li-ion in a standard 18650 size (18mm diameter x 65mm long). It's currently being used in the Makita Li-Ion power drill. I've tested that cell, and they don't have the current capability required for RC use. Sony is also VERY picky about who they sell their cells to. I don't think they want to market to the RC marketplace.
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Old 03-19-2007, 11:51 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tire Chunker
Was Sony Lipo or Ion?
One more thing I would like to add about the Sony recall is that the failures were traced back to small metal contaminats (burrs) from a metal stamping process that shorted out across the seperator. Sony has more QC checks for burrs and contaminants than ANY RC lipo manufacturer. Hopefully this will be a wakeup call for RC lipo manufacturers to have these checks in place - most don't and that's a fact - I've been then and seen it.
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