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Old 03-25-2007, 05:21 PM   #211
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Originally Posted by r0adrunn3r
So to compare - How many NiMH packs would you need to stay competitive in say 27Turn stock class - If you ran 3 qualifiers and 3 A mains?
Yea, probably 4-6 would be my guess. I believe you don't want to run the latest NiMH cells more than once a day, right?

I could easily trim this down to a single battery using the Platinum LiPo. In fact, I may end up doing that simply due to its increased weight.
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Old 03-25-2007, 05:35 PM   #212
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Yea, probably 4-6 would be my guess. I believe you don't want to run the latest NiMH cells more than once a day, right?

I could easily trim this down to a single battery using the Platinum LiPo. In fact, I may end up doing that simply due to its increased weight.
Yesterday I was running in two classes. 3 qualifiers each. My 3 NiMH packs went soft - no punch, when it was time for the finals.

I run LiPo's at club meetings - I never have any problems with punch at the end of the day.
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Old 03-25-2007, 05:47 PM   #213
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I can't wait to get my type R together ad start running the 3200s. I'll probably start testing in a couple weeks offroad. I'm a little nervous about finding the right balance on my BK2. Taking out that 6oz is a lot. Hopefully it's just a matter of burying a few ounces in the nose. Making a heavier battery door makes some sense in on the type R. I've been thinking about it and may have to put a little extra time in at work to come up with something.
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Old 03-25-2007, 08:35 PM   #214
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Originally Posted by wallyedmonds
do you think they will make lipo for 1/12
that would be fun.
I wanted to see if we could run a single cell voltage in 12th (3.7v) and it can be done. I raced two of my runs today on 3 NiMh cells and it worked just fine. You just need a receiver pack.

The funny thing is that it's not that much slower on a tight track (mod brushless). The speed at the end of the straight is about the same but it doesn't have the rip in the infield. It was easier in the tires, speedo and motor but a lot harder on the batteries. For LiPo you'll need a single cell cutoff so that you don'tover discharge.

If the cells had the same capacity it might even bring back some of the old school driving. You might not be able to run flat out for the entire run anymore.
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Old 03-25-2007, 09:41 PM   #215
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I spoke to a ROAR rep today that is in the know of this stuff. The conversation was completely off the record and more just his observations. Hopefully he doesnt mind me posting my thoughts on what he said. It didnt sound promising for lipo in the near term. Safety is a big concern for them and they dont have the means right now to determine on their own which cells are safe and which are not. His hope would be that there perhaps will be some standardization and governance around lithium-x batteries in general that they could look to for help on safety. He pointed to the fact that its not just RC batteries that catch fire but you hear of cell phone and laptop batteries doing the same.

We had a good talk on the subject and I raised many of the pros from this thread. He of course is just one person among many people in the organization so again these were just his thoughts (subject to change Im sure).

It was nice to know that they are at least aware of lipo batteries (and the need for a brushless stock class for that matter). I told him ROAR needs to do a better job of making people aware of the things they are considering and he agreed.

Again, this was not an official ROAR statement and just my conversation with one of among many. Take what I say with a grain of salt...
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Old 03-25-2007, 10:08 PM   #216
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as long as Roar has a ban on Li-Po....


I will not be able support their program & events.....

So its really their problem !!

Its not looking good for ROAR, even more so .

As Li-Po is being accepted by the R/c community everywhere ......
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Old 03-25-2007, 11:14 PM   #217
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Originally Posted by or8ital
Safety is a big concern for them and they dont have the means right now to determine on their own which cells are safe and which are not. His hope would be that there perhaps will be some standardization and governance around lithium-x batteries in general that they could look to for help on safety. He pointed to the fact that its not just RC batteries that catch fire but you hear of cell phone and laptop batteries doing the same.
With NiMH batteries, doesn't a "brand" get submitted for approval? (Not the NiMH cell design/manufacture/etc).

So what's to stop Orion or Trakpower from submitting their "Hard Cased" LiPo cells for approval? Safety? come-on everyone please take their cell phone from their pocket and open it up and see what type of battery it is. My Blackberry 8700g says Lithium Ion 3.7v (meaning that it is a LiPo cell). How my 8700g Blackberry's are there in the world...

Safety guidelines are needed not just for LiPo but NiMH too.
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Old 03-26-2007, 05:14 AM   #218
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Quote:
Originally Posted by or8ital
I spoke to a ROAR rep today that is in the know of this stuff. The conversation was completely off the record and more just his observations. Hopefully he doesnt mind me posting my thoughts on what he said. It didnt sound promising for lipo in the near term. Safety is a big concern for them and they dont have the means right now to determine on their own which cells are safe and which are not. His hope would be that there perhaps will be some standardization and governance around lithium-x batteries in general that they could look to for help on safety. He pointed to the fact that its not just RC batteries that catch fire but you hear of cell phone and laptop batteries doing the same.

We had a good talk on the subject and I raised many of the pros from this thread. He of course is just one person among many people in the organization so again these were just his thoughts (subject to change Im sure).

It was nice to know that they are at least aware of lipo batteries (and the need for a brushless stock class for that matter). I told him ROAR needs to do a better job of making people aware of the things they are considering and he agreed.

Again, this was not an official ROAR statement and just my conversation with one of among many. Take what I say with a grain of salt...
If that's the case then they're idiots. I can put one of the batteries to my ear, or carry it right over the ol' family jewels but wouldn't be allowed to use it in my toy car???? That's fine then, we'll continue to use it at the club level and ROAR can go #$%# themselves.

And I was actually starting to give ROAR a little support on these boards. Well, they just lost that.
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Old 03-26-2007, 06:49 AM   #219
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If I had to guess some of it might have something to do with a tie back to their insurance. Sure 99.9% of the batteries will be safe but there is going to be some kind of failure sometime (just like Sony with their laptop batteries and some 3rd party cell phone batteries). So I understand the concern. I guess the thing that is disappointing is that obviously there are failures with nimh cells as well but they are approved. The difference I guess being that unless a projectile from a nimh explosion really hurt someone the monetary damages would be limited. A lipo going up in flames could easily burn down a building.

Keep in mind guys this was just one person within ROAR. I guess it is a bit democratic in that there is an election for some of the ROAR reps and if we want change I guess that is one way people can drive it. Dunno...
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Old 03-26-2007, 07:45 AM   #220
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I do not buy the insurance piece. You are telling me that this is more dangerous than an 1/8th scale clocking someone from a jump? That there is not a risk from someone smoking around nitro fuel? They allow tansmitter packs. Most all problems happen during charging. So charging a transmitter pack is not against insurance? On the track if they go up is the least of your problems. That is what a fire extigisher is designed to solve. Last time a checked clay does not burn that fast.


I have poked holes in fully charged cells and they only smolder. I have overcharged some cells at 1/3 more voltage for over an hour. They puffed a little and that was it. Charging is the biggest problem for almost any battery type and that should be addressed.

You know there are some UL ratings and other items that kokam follows for their cells. Maybe ROAR can look into some of the standards and batteries should follow those standards.

Also how are the model airplane guys getting insurance for any of this stuff? I have not heard them banning lipos. Am I missing something here?

Roar needs to post their issues and let the manufactures have a chance to answer the issues. No one can fix what they do not know is broken. This is why I run no roar races and only run club or the rcpro off-road.
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Old 03-26-2007, 08:20 AM   #221
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The insurance was just my speculation. I dont know that to be true.

I have no doubt based on what Ive seen that Kokam/Orion does a great job with safety. However, from the videos Ive seen on the web if I lipo cell were to catch fire on a carpet track I cant imagine a fire extinguisher could put the fire out fast enough. This is what Im sure they want to prevent.

If cost were an issue for ROAR then why doesnt ROAR just name a third party they want the mfgs to do through and have the mfg pay for the testing. Im sure Orion would pay whatever is necessary to get their product approved as they would get it back in sales.
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Old 03-26-2007, 09:16 AM   #222
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I am not sure what the exact reasoning is other then fears of liability which to that I ask, why are drivers allowed to use LiPo in their transmitters (which they hold up to there torso?) Also are we no longer allowed to bring cellphones and laptops into ROAR events?

And yes that is a good point why is it that the AMA allows LiPo's at flight fields most of them over grassland which is far easier a fuel then carpet for a major fire risk?

Unfortunately everyone I knew that was tied into ROAR is no longer with them so I do not know the reasoning behind the desicions. I am sure they would very much like to get it approved but I am also under the impression that there are factors beyond their abilities that are preventing this.
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Old 03-26-2007, 09:40 AM   #223
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MrBlack, what has Orion done to work with ROAR on the issue? I know they have tried to submit batteries for review but what other things have they done? I know on the surface some of what is implied seems unreasonable -- but Im sure if a company such as Team Orion were to ask ROAR their concerns and how they could ease them then they might be willing to work with them on it. It seems to me ROAR is bashing lipo without all the knowledge and Team Orion is bashing ROAR without knowing what their concerns are. The person I talked to seems like a very reasonable and approachable person that Im sure would speak further to you about it. If you want to PM me I can get you the name of the person I spoke to and his contact info is on the ROAR website. Seems like parties discussing this on a website forum rather then directly on the phone isnt going to get this hobby moving forward (esp when one of the parties doesnt seem to be in the discussion).
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Old 03-26-2007, 04:46 PM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBlack
I am not sure what the exact reasoning is other then fears of liability which to that I ask, why are drivers allowed to use LiPo in their transmitters (which they hold up to there torso?)
You don't abuse the transmitter batteries as much as the batteries for the car, unless your transmitter draws 20c
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Old 03-26-2007, 05:36 PM   #225
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Originally Posted by nichocgn
Also how are the model airplane guys getting insurance for any of this stuff? I have not heard them banning lipos. Am I missing something here?
You can't really compare the AMA to ROAR. The AMA is huge in comparison and has a totally different organization. They're not perfect by any means but very organized. Emagine how much you guys would complain if ROAR wouldn't even let you drive a car by yourself.
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