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Old 03-14-2007, 12:51 PM   #1
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Default ROAR Brushless Spec Class 2008? Lipo too?

In another thread there was talk about ROAR adding two additional classes for 2008 (speculation Im sure) for 13.5 and 10.5 brushless motors. Now my question isn't about whether or not they should add more classes (we all know more classes arent good for the hobby) but I was wondering if they were to add more classes would they look at the new technologies as a whole? Seems lipo and brushless are kind of gaining momentum at the same time. Do you think ROAR would consider both a battery and motor change for any new classes?

Again this is only about the adding of new classes and if they would take more then one technology change into consideration. I dont want debate about how bad lipos and brushless are, etc.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:03 PM   #2
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Judging from their ridicules reasoning for not allowing LiPo in existing classes I would say no. ROAR would have to do some serious back pedaling to allow lipo in any class after banning it for explosive safety reasons.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:04 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by or8ital
In another thread there was talk about ROAR adding two additional classes for 2008 (speculation Im sure) for 13.5 and 10.5 brushless motors. Now my question isn't about whether or not they should add more classes (we all know more classes arent good for the hobby) but I was wondering if they were to add more classes would they look at the new technologies as a whole? Seems lipo and brushless are kind of gaining momentum at the same time. Do you think ROAR would consider both a battery and motor change for any new classes?

Again this is only about the adding of new classes and if they would take more then one technology change into consideration. I dont want debate about how bad lipos and brushless are, etc.
Clues have been dropped by a certain someone, who was a ROAR excomm member last year, that LiPo (to a certain degree) will be legal in 2008. That certain someone works for a major R/C car manufacturer and is currently getting his tail chewed out over a comment that might have come out wrong on a thread about the new 13.5 Novak brushless. The company he works for has a new chassis that's hitting the market soon and they say is set up for ease of use for 6-cell, 5-cell AND LiPo. Not sure how much info that person wants to come out which is why I'm not naming names.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:09 PM   #4
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My guess would be that if Roar did allow Lipo next year it would be in its own class. My opinion is that if they do do that then they need to limit it to well constructed Lipo's like the Orion/Peak packs and not allow some 29.95 ebay junk that have tarnished the lipo reputation already. Everyone knows the Orion/Peak stuff is very well built, holds up well, economical, and most of all SAFE!!

My opinion as a racer...Not a manufacturer

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Old 03-14-2007, 01:17 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EAMotorsports
My guess would be that if Roar did allow Lipo next year it would be in its own class. My opinion is that if they do do that then they need to limit it to well constructed Lipo's like the Orion/Peak packs and not allow some 29.95 ebay junk that have tarnished the lipo reputation already. Everyone knows the Orion/Peak stuff is very well built, holds up well, economical, and most of all SAFE!!

My opinion as a racer...Not a manufacturer

EA
I agree...though I think as long as the car makes weight then LiPo should run with everyone else. Just my opinion though...and the Orion/Peak 3200s ROCK in Minis.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:19 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by muahdib4
I agree...though I think as long as the car makes weight then LiPo should run with everyone else. Just my opinion though...and the Orion/Peak 3200s ROCK in Minis.

I cant honestly say I think they should or shouldnt be run together as I have never used a Lipo pack so I dont know if they are an advantage or dis-advantage to current cells other than weight and durability. If they show a strong performance advantage then I would be against it...and vice versa if they were a dis-advantage.

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Old 03-14-2007, 01:24 PM   #7
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Any decision about LiPo should include hiring a guy like linger as a consultant to set people straight. If you haven't read his very informative post about the origin of LiPo cells, and the quality/consistency across manufacturers, I'd urge you to look it up in the Carbon 3200 thread (from about a week ago) as it's enlightening.

I'm glad to see there's momentum building for a brushless stock and brushless spec mod class. I deeply and sincerely hope it allows for the use of LiPo, but baby steps are okay for now. Like EA said, we need some clearly defined guidelines about what LiPo cells are allowed. Ideally, manufacturers would have to submit their battery samples for rigorous safety testing to someone in the know, or perhaps if that information is freely available from other sources, it could be used as a guideline.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:26 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EAMotorsports
I cant honestly say I think they should or shouldnt be run together as I have never used a Lipo pack so I dont know if they are an advantage or dis-advantage to current cells other than weight and durability. If they show a strong performance advantage then I would be against it...and vice versa if they were a dis-advantage.

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I believe a new 4200 pack will have a voltage advantage over LiPo, at least during the first portion of the race. Much like brushless, LiPo needs to be judged on its own merits, and now how it compares to the latest batch of hot NiMH cells. The benefit is in the use, maintenance and longevity, not the head-to-head battle.

I agree, these shouldn't be run together. If you legalize LiPo, drop the weight requirements and usher in a new era of chassis design.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:28 PM   #9
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That is, I don't think LiPo should be run with NiMH as an official solution. But, since it's generally "close enough" for club racing, I think it's fine to combine them unofficially during a transition period, as long as the LiPo guys make weight. Very much like combining 13.5 and stock. The convenience is too strong to sit by idly and wait for something to happen, and using them in the clubs is what drives change in the rules.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:53 PM   #10
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i think i'll take some pics of what a lipo-gone-bad did to my charger, lathe bag, pit towel, tool boxes, etc... and post them up here. i was pitting across from a guy who claimed to know what he was doing with lipo's. something happened, that battery went off like a roman candle. if i had been at my pit, my face and arms would look like my equipment does; like it had been burned by a cigarette a few hundred times. and that's just the physical damage from heat. the stench inside the building was unreal, i imagine the fumes can't be healthy to inhale.

i don't know who made the pack or what caused it to do that, but frankly i don't care. it's one thing to talk about how safe they are, but until you've seen it happen from across the room and seen what it can do to whatever's around it, you're just speculating.

in all my years involved with RC cars, that would be since 1988, i've never seen a nicad or nimh do any damage even close to what that pack did.

however, ROAR is an insurance company, so if they set strict guidelines and they are enforced ruthlessly, i'm sure the rules will have safety at the forefront.

remember folks, all of our electrical equipment aside from power supplies and soldering irons is "low voltage" and not subject to certification by any consumer watchdog groups like Underwriters Laboratories. WE have to be our own watchdogs and safety advocates when it comes to this stuff. i for one am not willing to put a price on my own safety and health, and even if i was that price would NOT be a bit more run time.
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Old 03-14-2007, 01:58 PM   #11
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RussB lets keep it on the subject of new classes and not about the merits of a technology. As you said you dont know what Lipo he was using. I had someone elsea Nimh blow up on me a month ago so all technologies need to be looked at with safety the biggest concern.

What I dont want to see happen is have:

- Stock Brushed w Lipo
- Stock Brushed w Nimh
- Stock Brushless w Lipo
- Stock Brushed w Nimh
etc.

Obviously this is way too many classes. Thus what lead me to wonder if they would do

- Stock Brushed w Nimh
- Stock Brushless w Lipo (maybe make nimh legal but at a weight disadvantage as to not exclude??)
etc
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Old 03-14-2007, 02:05 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by or8ital
RussB lets keep it on the subject of new classes and not about the merits of a technology. As you said you dont know what Lipo he was using. I had someone elsea Nimh blow up on me a month ago so all technologies need to be looked at with safety the biggest concern.

What I dont want to see happen is have:

- Stock Brushed w Lipo
- Stock Brushed w Nimh
- Stock Brushless w Lipo
- Stock Brushed w Nimh
etc.

Obviously this is way too many classes. Thus what lead me to wonder if they would do

- Stock Brushed w Nimh
- Stock Brushless w Lipo (maybe make nimh legal but at a weight disadvantage as to not exclude??)
etc
i fail to see how my post was off-topic. this thread is discussing 3 topics: ROAR, LiPo, and brushless. my post was in response to 2 of those 3 topics: ROAR and LiPo.

but since this post needs to be on-topic or i'll get bitched at again, that is too many classes. we run 13.5 in our stock sedan classes and 10.5 (4300) in our 19t class. further dividing of the classes will reduce class sizes. fewer cars in a class = less competition. less competition = a finishing order that rarely changes, which would lead to less interest. less interest = less racing. less racing =
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Old 03-14-2007, 02:05 PM   #13
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I posted this in another thread.

There's an airplane show in Westchester County NY every year called the WRAM show. I attended the show this year. Tom Hunt, a long time flier and writer for Fly RC gave a quick seminar about LiPo cells myths and facts.

For the most part if treated properly LiPo cells are safe. Tom is a big proponent of electric flight and I've watched him fly a few times. By the way he uses 5s packs, thats 18 volts!

But what got me worried was what can happen to a Lipo pack if it is damaged. You may not even notice the pack is damaged, but if they are they can ignite, sometimes hours after the damage occurred! And if a LiPo pack ignites, LOOK OUT!!! It has a very hot fire which can shoot out a good diatance from the pack. Tom reported too many damaged houses and cars from fliers that just threw their plane into the car after a crash.

Now think about what kind of damage can happen to an RC car. How many times have you seen someone driving with their battery pack hanging out of the car?

Now for outdoor racing, I think LiPo is okay. But indoors? With a Paragon soaked carpet??? I don't know about that.
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Old 03-14-2007, 02:08 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RussB
i fail to see how my post was off-topic. this thread is discussing 3 topics: ROAR, LiPo, and brushless. my post was in response to 2 of those 3 topics: ROAR and LiPo.

but since this post needs to be on-topic or i'll get bitched at again, that is too many classes. we run 13.5 in our stock sedan classes and 10.5 (4300) in our 19t class. further dividing of the classes will reduce class sizes. fewer cars in a class = less competition. less competition = a finishing order that rarely changes, which would lead to less interest. less interest = less racing. less racing =
Wasnt trying to bitch, just didnt want to take the thread down the lipo safety path (which it kind of already did) because we already have 1000 of those and it become a big fight. Safety with all new technology should be considered by ROAR when making new classes for all equipment (not just batteries).
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Old 03-14-2007, 02:09 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jiml
I posted this in another thread.

There's an airplane show in Westchester County NY every year called the WRAM show. I attended the show this year. Tom Hunt, a long time flier and writer for Fly RC gave a quick seminar about LiPo cells myths and facts.

For the most part if treated properly LiPo cells are safe. Tom is a big proponent of electric flight and I've watched him fly a few times. By the way he uses 5s packs, thats 18 volts!

But what got me worried was what can happen to a Lipo pack if it is damaged. You may not even notice the pack is damaged, but if they are they can ignite, sometimes hours after the damage occurred! And if a LiPo pack ignites, LOOK OUT!!! It has a very hot fire which can shoot out a good diatance from the pack. Tom reported too many damaged houses and cars from fliers that just threw their plane into the car after a crash.

Now think about what kind of damage can happen to an RC car. How many times have you seen someone driving with their battery pack hanging out of the car?

Now for outdoor racing, I think LiPo is okay. But indoors? With a Paragon soaked carpet??? I don't know about that.
:applause:

i wouldn't be worried about the experienced die-hard racer being the safety problem. i'm worried about the average hobbyist racer, the guy who does drag his battery on track, the guy who throws his packs in his tool box and not a battery box, the guy who leaves his stuff in his trunk all week...
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