R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-15-2007, 10:15 AM   #61
Tech Master
 
Ed237's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Dudley PA
Posts: 1,431
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Default

Unfortunately, this is an either/or situation because there's not enough racers do both brushed/NiMH and Brushless/Lipo races. It has to be one or the other.

Given that reality, I think ROAR is actually doing the right thing by waiting as long as possible before allowing Lipos and 13t brushless motors. Because when they do, that will be the end of 'stock' racing as we know it and a lot of good racers will leave.

In the meantime, everybody just needs to man up and run the classes by the rules as they are written until the majority of the RC industry and racers are ready to move away from brushed motors and NiMH cells.

I don't know the answer to these questions but its worth asking:

If the current selection of truly amazing 4200s NiMH and stockers aren't making people want to race electric on road what makes any of you think that next generation of Lipos and brushless will?

And if Lipo/Brushless won't make on road racing signficantly better or more popular, why switch in the first place?

If increased speeds and lower maintenance are what feul RC sales and popularity why didnt the electric on road RC double its size over the last 5 years when we switched to NiMH cells and silver brushes?
Ed237 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 10:25 AM   #62
Tech Lord
 
syndr0me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 5280 Raceway
Posts: 13,140
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed237
Given that reality, I think ROAR is actually doing the right thing by waiting as long as possible before allowing Lipos and 13t brushless motors. Because when they do, that will be the end of 'stock' racing as we know it and a lot of good racers will leave.
They're going to quit racing when things get easier? Why would they quit?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed237
In the meantime, everybody just needs to man up and run the classes by the rules as they are written until the majority of the RC industry and racers are ready to move away from brushed motors and NiMH cells.
Wrong. Rules are made based on market demand. "Manning up" is pushing things forward and not being afraid of change. We're driving the future of R/C not waiting around for someone else to make a change.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed237
If the current selection of truly amazing 4200s NiMH and stockers aren't making people want to race electric on road what makes any of you think that next generation of Lipos and brushless will?
There's nothing at all amazing about the current technology. It's old world compared to what's new. Maintaining NiMH batteries requires a lot of equipment to be done properly, and they have all kinds of annoying requirements and limitations to be used properly. LiPo suffers from none of those problems. It's better in every single possible measurable way.

Brushless motors require none of the voodoo or tuning knowledge to be fast. Plus, you don't need a truer or a pile of brushes to keep them running the same time after time.

So, lower cost of entry, lower barrier to entry, less maintenance, more time spent racing... those are some of the reasons this is better for the hobby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed237
And if Lipo/Brushless won't make on road racing signficantly better or more popular, why switch in the first place?
It already has. People are switching because both technologies are significantly better. I'm guessing you haven't tried it. Don't be afraid, the brushless motors and LiPo batteries will be good to you.
syndr0me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 10:29 AM   #63
Tech Fanatic
 
muahdib4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Raymore
Posts: 863
Send a message via Yahoo to muahdib4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed237
Unfortunately, this is an either/or situation because there's not enough racers do both brushed/NiMH and Brushless/Lipo races. It has to be one or the other.

Given that reality, I think ROAR is actually doing the right thing by waiting as long as possible before allowing Lipos and 13t brushless motors. Because when they do, that will be the end of 'stock' racing as we know it and a lot of good racers will leave.

In the meantime, everybody just needs to man up and run the classes by the rules as they are written until the majority of the RC industry and racers are ready to move away from brushed motors and NiMH cells.

I don't know the answer to these questions but its worth asking:

If the current selection of truly amazing 4200s NiMH and stockers aren't making people want to race electric on road what makes any of you think that next generation of Lipos and brushless will?

And if Lipo/Brushless won't make on road racing signficantly better or more popular, why switch in the first place?

If increased speeds and lower maintenance are what feul RC sales and popularity why didnt the electric on road RC double its size over the last 5 years when we switched to NiMH cells and silver brushes?
Could it be that NiMh batteries still need cycled, still need maintenance and still don't last that long before they start dropping off. As for the motors..you still have to true the comm, you still have to solder brushes and springs and replace them as they wear out. You don't have to do ANY of that with Brushless or LiPo. That leads to VERY little to no maintenance making it less intimidating for the new guys. Many people like myself have families and other commitments and only get that 1 day every week or maybe every 2 weeks to even look at their R/C stuff and that's on race day.
__________________
KCRC - Kansas City Remote Crawlers
Team Chucklenuts Racing
Midwest R/C Rally Confederation
KC/RC Drift Movement
muahdib4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 10:59 AM   #64
Tech Master
 
Ed237's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Dudley PA
Posts: 1,431
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Default

I was trying to make the point that the current motors and batteries last twice as long as their NiCad predicessors and yet that has not resulted in growth. It actually may have inadvertently caused a contraction.

Don't assume that making the cars faster or having less mantenence will translate into better turnout or improve things.
Ed237 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 11:12 AM   #65
Tech Lord
 
syndr0me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 5280 Raceway
Posts: 13,140
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Default

I think a lot of the resistance is psychological. If you go to a track, and look around the pits, who do you expect to be fast? Most likely, it's the guy with two TurboMatchers with custom face plates, three discharge trays, a giant plastic box full of brushes and springs, a fancy comm truer, etc.

Those guys probably made a lot of sacrifices to get that equipment, and I'm sure it makes them feel big an important on some level. It says "I take racing seriously." I mean, who has several grand worth of gear if they're not serious about racing and winning, right?

So what's brushless and LiPo do? It obsoletes ALL of that stuff. And in a bad way, since it won't even have much resale value if people switch across the board. Suddenly, you can have two LiPo batteries, a single brushless motor, a charger the size of a deck of cards and a power supply the size of a baseball... and that's it. With that tiny amount of stuff, you could whip the guy with the mountain of gear.

That's GOOD for the hobby, because it gives new racers, or racers with a smaller budget the ability to compete more evenly. It gives racers that don't have a lot of time to dedicate the same ability, since the only maintenance they really need to do is to keep their car in good working order.

So, yes, this is a little bit sad for the dinosaurs of R/C. I can understand their attachment to their gear, and wanting to protect it. I believe most of you fighting this battle will find it's -those- guys that are resisting it.
syndr0me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 11:48 AM   #66
Tech Elite
 
ottoman's Avatar
R/C Tech Charter Subscriber
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: wisconsin
Posts: 2,761
Trader Rating: 13 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
I think a lot of the resistance is psychological. If you go to a track, and look around the pits, who do you expect to be fast? Most likely, it's the guy with two TurboMatchers with custom face plates, three discharge trays, a giant plastic box full of brushes and springs, a fancy comm truer, etc.

Those guys probably made a lot of sacrifices to get that equipment, and I'm sure it makes them feel big an important on some level. It says "I take racing seriously." I mean, who has several grand worth of gear if they're not serious about racing and winning, right?

So what's brushless and LiPo do? It obsoletes ALL of that stuff. And in a bad way, since it won't even have much resale value if people switch across the board. Suddenly, you can have two LiPo batteries, a single brushless motor, a charger the size of a deck of cards and a power supply the size of a baseball... and that's it. With that tiny amount of stuff, you could whip the guy with the mountain of gear.

That's GOOD for the hobby, because it gives new racers, or racers with a smaller budget the ability to compete more evenly. It gives racers that don't have a lot of time to dedicate the same ability, since the only maintenance they really need to do is to keep their car in good working order.

So, yes, this is a little bit sad for the dinosaurs of R/C. I can understand their attachment to their gear, and wanting to protect it. I believe most of you fighting this battle will find it's -those- guys that are resisting it.
I dissagree... I am a dinasour... I have 2 GFX's with custom face plates... lathe, dyno, discharger's and a whole bunch of stuff I have accumulated over the years. I would have NO problem going to LiPo if it was legal to run at the races (small and big) that I attend. Heck I retire a perfectly good XRay each time a new one comes out so why would it bother me to put the old equipment on the shelf
Same goes fro B/L... I have a few and I like them BUT they arnt legal yet in most classes.
Make a SAFE... Orion/Peak style.... LiPo legal at the Novak, IIC, Cleveland, Birds etc and I will have no problem going LiPo. Same goes for B/L
Believe it or not us old RC racers have lived through a lot of changes over the years yet we are still around.... maybe "dinosaur" isnt really the right term
ottoman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 11:58 AM   #67
Tech Addict
 
MrBlack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: OC
Posts: 746
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IlikeRCstuff
If the limiter fails the fuse will blow. That would make using lipos much safer.
We already have this built into our 4800 and 3200 LiPo batteries.
__________________
TEAM ORION - AVIONICS - KYOSHO - KO PROPO - PEAK

"Racing is about the journey not the destination if it wasn't it would simply be called Arriving"

"The solution is people need to spend more of their efforts on promoting and finding more people to race with, rather then a personal quest to form a class that they can win at."
MrBlack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 12:21 PM   #68
Tech Addict
 
MrBlack's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: OC
Posts: 746
Default

Here is a little info and first let me remind everyone I work for Team Orion and we are arguably the largest manufacturer of brushed motors and the largest tuner of NiMH batteries world wide and possibly the same here in the US. We are also manufacturers of brushless motors (were back) and one of if not the largest manufacturer of LiPo batteries for R/C Cars as well.

We benefit whether it goes one way or the other so I do not have a financial bias however I do have a bias to growing our hobby by bringing in more racers (= more customers) and providing a positive experience that they will pass on.

We get calls daily from all levels of customer and many shops and race organizers and these are the facts:

Those that have embrassed BL and LiPo have seen a noticable growth in their events and attendeance at the club/track.

Those that have apposed it have seen the normal decline that has been recently been happening lately.

We have never gotten a call from people saying how a brushed motor or NiMH battery has kept them from quitting the hobby or made their experience a better one. We get almost daily calls from customers just wanting to say "Thank You" for Bl and LiPo and tell us how it took what they feared was a dying hobby for them and made them enjoy it again.

Those that want to continue with NiMH and Brushed that is fine and we make a great product line for you and we will continue to support it. But please stop this blatant bashing of those that enjoy the technology of tomorrow and please stop the mis-representation based on rumors and a foggy experiences that happened years ago.

There is room for both groups maybe ROAR should just devide things up as such:

Unlimited ( Unlimited everything, meaning everything)
Tuner (I have more freetime to do the research and all the Voodoo)
Spec (Sealed everything, everything! no power tuning allowed period)

Now in each class there will be Brushed/NiMh and a BL/LiPo group and we will let consumers decide If a class cannot support an A-? mains then it is dropped and brought back quartery to see if there is interest for the first year if it dies for over a year we try again annually if it fails at the next year point then we drop it.

Also maybe it is time we look at the one run tire package that has plagued On-Road as well. $35 a run is a hard swallow for many people and the real reason that many have quit.
__________________
TEAM ORION - AVIONICS - KYOSHO - KO PROPO - PEAK

"Racing is about the journey not the destination if it wasn't it would simply be called Arriving"

"The solution is people need to spend more of their efforts on promoting and finding more people to race with, rather then a personal quest to form a class that they can win at."
MrBlack is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 12:29 PM   #69
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 5,360
Trader Rating: 38 (100%+)
Default

MrBlack, great info! and I agree on the tires. My first year racing I raced with a group of people that used the same tires all summer long (so no one had advantages) and it was the most fun Ive had racing.

At the track last week we were trying to figure out if we took our total investment into RC divided by the # of times we raced what the cost would be per week of racing. We figured close to $100.
or8ital is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 12:48 PM   #70
Tech Master
 
Ed237's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Dudley PA
Posts: 1,431
Trader Rating: 10 (100%+)
Default

I'm looking down the road, and I can see that possibly as early as next year and probably no later than 2-3 years from now that ROAR will legalize a stock brushless motor and LiPo batteries and I will gladly switch over once that happens.

But lets not rush into it. I don't think there are enough manufacturers or racers who are ready to switch to maintain the current level of competition. As much as I dislike Trinity, I don't think we should switch untill they are on board. And its not ROARs fault either. Lipo and brushless just are not popular enough - yet.

Until then, follow the current rules. It won't kill you.
Ed237 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 12:51 PM   #71
Tech Champion
 
asw7576's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 5,792
Default

Just an idea ......

LiPo racers will be -1 lap ( read: minus 1 lap down ) when racing against NiMH racers.

Is this fair ? ( Assuming LiPo racers benefits from higher and flatter discharge rates compare to NiMH racers throughout the race length ).
__________________
On Road : Xray NT1 , RX8 , T4 || Mugen Seiki MRX4-R , MTX4 , MTX3 prospec || Tamiya M03 , M04 || Top Racing Sabre FD2
Off Road : Xray XT8 || Hobao Hyper 8
Radio : Futaba 3PKS || KO propo EX-10 eurus
asw7576 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 12:53 PM   #72
Tech Fanatic
 
muahdib4's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Raymore
Posts: 863
Send a message via Yahoo to muahdib4
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ed237
I'm looking down the road, and I can see that possibly as early as next year and probably no later than 2-3 years from now that ROAR will legalize a stock brushless motor and LiPo batteries and I will gladly switch over once that happens.

But lets not rush into it. I don't think there are enough manufacturers or racers who are ready to switch to maintain the current level of competition. As much as I dislike Trinity, I don't think we should switch untill they are on board. And its not ROARs fault either. Lipo and brushless just are not popular enough - yet.

Until then, follow the current rules. It won't kill you.
Brushless and Lipo aren't that popular???? What planet do you race on? Maybe our track is the exception but a lot more then half (probably 75%) of the people in any Stock class are running 13.5 brushless, there is an entire class of 4300 brushless and probably 80-90% of the people are using LiPo including our Tamiya Mini (M03) class that we run.
__________________
KCRC - Kansas City Remote Crawlers
Team Chucklenuts Racing
Midwest R/C Rally Confederation
KC/RC Drift Movement
muahdib4 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 12:54 PM   #73
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 5,360
Trader Rating: 38 (100%+)
Default

Im not sure if it is just pockets of racers but I hear a lot where places are having more brushless racers show up then brushed. Its about 50-50 I think where I race. People are definately embracing it quickly. I think one of ROARs concerns is going to be initial cost. A brushed motor is a lot cheaper upfront. Would the price of a brushless setup scare people away (even though they are unaware the TCO is much cheaper for racing??). I think ROAR would like to see more brushless mfg's so the price will come down. Dont know. Just speculating.
or8ital is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 12:57 PM   #74
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 5,360
Trader Rating: 38 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by asw7576
Just an idea ......

LiPo racers will be -1 lap ( read: minus 1 lap down ) when racing against NiMH racers.

Is this fair ? ( Assuming LiPo racers benefits from higher and flatter discharge rates compare to NiMH racers throughout the race length ).
How big is the track?
or8ital is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2007, 12:59 PM   #75
Tech Lord
 
syndr0me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 5280 Raceway
Posts: 13,140
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ottoman
I dissagree... I am a dinasour... I have 2 GFX's with custom face plates...
I apologize for the generalization, I felt it was necessary to make the point. While there are undoubtedly plenty of open-minded people such as yourself, much of the resistance seems to be coming from the "old guard" of the hobby, and it seems not always for the right reasons. Granted, that may have something to do with the fact that they've lived through several similar changes in the past, and have mixed feelings about the experience.

Like orbital said elsewhere, I think sometimes our passion for these things spills over into how we speak to or treat people, and that's unfortunate, and unintended. I mean no disrespect to anybody.
syndr0me is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
1/12 Pan Brushless Lipo Rubber Tire Class? reenmachine Electric On-Road 53 05-18-2012 07:05 PM
2008 LRP SPHERE COMP TC SPEC BRUSHLESS SPEEDO NEW IN BOX nobike R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 35 06-04-2008 07:48 PM
ROAR approves LIPO and Brushless al dente Colorado Racing 12 01-23-2008 11:42 PM
2008 TCS Rules - Brushless and LiPo!!! RandomFellow Electric On-Road 34 12-10-2007 09:44 PM
Who wants to run 1/12 scale Mamba Brushless spec class? GordonFreeman MARCCA Discussion 61 09-03-2005 03:48 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 06:23 AM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net