R/C Tech Forums

Go Back   R/C Tech Forums > General Forums > Electric On-Road

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 03-14-2007, 02:56 PM   #31
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 5,360
Trader Rating: 38 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
I agree that we need fewer classes, but this doesn't feel like the right mix. 19T is often the most popular class at big races, and with this scenario it would require stock and mod guys to maintain a separate set of batteries specifically for that class. As long as NiMH is allowed, that's what people are going to use at big events, because it's faster. It would be a shame to kill 19T, it's often the most interesting since you get to see the stock guys vs the mod guys.

We probably need to separate these two topics. It's hard to make any progress talking about a brushless class since so many people are still uninformed about LiPo, and naturally rejected it because it melted the fur on someone's brother's cat. Maybe we should start fresh without the LiPo part and just assume we're stuck with NiMH at big events for a while longer.
Yeah I see your point on the 19T being the class that stock and mod guys mix it up but maybe this would happen anyway if we got rid of the class? Maybe the fast stock guys would also run Mod instead of settling on 19T?

My only concern with separating the discussion is that then we only address one of the concerns of racers (brushed vs brushless) and to me it seems the constant battery wars (and changes) are more concerning to racers?? I wouldnt mind using Nimh only at big races but its unfortunate many clubs get guidelines from ROAR rules and thus its preventing lipos at casual club races. Maybe ROAR should have rules for big races but also issue some guidelines to club races to help grow the hobby.
or8ital is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 02:57 PM   #32
Tech Lord
 
syndr0me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 5280 Raceway
Posts: 13,140
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Default

This is what has been talked about by Adrian, and I think it's what has the most momentum with ROAR. Hopefully Adrian can come by and clarify.

Stock Brushless - 13.5T
Spec Mod (19T) Brushless - 10.5T
Open Mod - Same as we have now, brushed or brushless

The change is already happening in stock racing at the club level in a big way. I don't know how it is other places that allow 13.5 to run with brushed, but around here it's about 10:1 in favor of brushless. And the motor has been out for, what, 6 months?

Stock is where most new people start, and I'd say the most critical class to try and reform in the clubs, and eventually at big races. The spec mod class might be a good place to test this at big races, though you risk hurting attendance in the 19T class if you replace it.
syndr0me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 03:00 PM   #33
Tech Lord
 
syndr0me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 5280 Raceway
Posts: 13,140
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by or8ital
Yeah I see your point on the 19T being the class that stock and mod guys mix it up but maybe this would happen anyway if we got rid of the class? Maybe the fast stock guys would also run Mod instead of settling on 19T?

My only concern with separating the discussion is that then we only address one of the concerns of racers (brushed vs brushless) and to me it seems the constant battery wars (and changes) are more concerning to racers?? I wouldnt mind using Nimh only at big races but its unfortunate many clubs get guidelines from ROAR rules and thus its preventing lipos at casual club races. Maybe ROAR should have rules for big races but also issue some guidelines to club races to help grow the hobby.
ROAR definitely needs to man up and address LiPo beyond banning it entirely. It's clearly here to stay, and hugely popular. They can probably allow it in competition without granting people an unfair advantage if weight requirements are met. It would be nice to see them do this, but I think it's a battle that has to be fought separately from brushless to speed the process. Your thread though, I don't mind calling people out on their LiPo stories. :-)
syndr0me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 03:04 PM   #34
Tech Champion
 
skypilot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,524
Trader Rating: 14 (100%+)
Default

on topic, i don't really see a need to seperate the lipos and nimh batteries into different classes. the power advantage is to nimh batteries at our track we run a 13.5 class and mix the two batteries, i have yet to be out powered or beat by a lipo, we also run 8 minute heats and mains. the lighter weight isn't that big a deal IMO, and roar could always keep min weight the same.

i also believe on the club level the 13.5 has an advantage over a stock motor, however at the bigger races with the level of drivers and motors available to them a stock motor my be better.

roar could also drop the stock foam class to build the stock class overall.
skypilot is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 03:12 PM   #35
Tech Adept
 
sepirts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 140
Default

I would love to run BL in stock. After much lobbying I think a lot of other drivers would go for it too, except those on very tight budgets (and I don't mean the ones who buy the $30 Br00d / EA motors and cut the comms every round - I mean the young guy, that mom or dad will buy him one motor (for the year). I say, let the new guy, run brushed if he wants at the club level.

At regionals / NATs, stock = 13.5 BL. Now you have to deal with the train of folks that say it's unfair, since only Novak makes a 13.5. Well, stock has handout motors, so there is only one to chose from anyway.

19T and mod, the choice should be up to the driver.
sepirts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 03:14 PM   #36
Tech Adept
 
sepirts's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 140
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by skypilot

roar could also drop the stock foam class to build the stock class overall.
Sky - I agree. stock foam doesn't make sense. If you want to run foam, then you shouldn't be running in stock. It's just not what stock is for...
sepirts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 03:15 PM   #37
Tech Lord
 
syndr0me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 5280 Raceway
Posts: 13,140
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Default

You could always do this:

Stock (13.5) Brushless Class
- Any 13.5T brushless motor conforming to ROAR 2008 BL Spec Rules
- Legacy 27T brushed stock motors also allowed.

Turn the tables, zing!
syndr0me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 03:23 PM   #38
Tech Elite
 
bvoltz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Bedtime with Teddi
Posts: 3,635
Trader Rating: 44 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
Wow, this took a nose dive.

Okay, forget LiPo for now. Lets just talk brushless classes. Hopefully you race at a club that allows LiPo to be run with NiMH if there are weight limits. It's really very close, with the advantage going to NiMH.

But, for now, that's a different argument.

But we do, and the entries are up and up... you can run BL or B in Stock, you can BL or B in 19T and you can run 4 cell or 5 cell or 6 cell or LiPo all in the same class (different weights). Pick what you want and come and race. I would prefer Orion's hardcase LiPo and only talk about them if you ask me...

Take a look at the rules.... It sure is getting people out to race and have fun. I DO NOT agree these rules for a National event.... But I'm not running a National event.....

http://www.rcracingxtreme.com/Rules.htm

Sorry for the plug, but I'm doing what you guys are talking about and it is getting bigger and bigger every event.... So I'm sharing the results of action with you...
__________________
Wheeling an Xray T4 and T4 14 using a Ko Propo, powered by EA motors and Speed Passion Speedo, paid for by my wife.

Digi3Dworks - 3D printing for the medical Field.
bvoltz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 03:25 PM   #39
Tech Addict
 
RussB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 736
Send a message via MSN to RussB
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
You could always do this:

Stock (13.5) Brushless Class
- Any 13.5T brushless motor conforming to ROAR 2008 BL Spec Rules
- Legacy 27T brushed stock motors also allowed.

Turn the tables, zing!
now that's a good idea. updates the rules to be in-line with future technology while still allowing old tech.

same thing could apply to what we currently call 19t and mod.

granted, the whole "19t" name would have to change... something like "pro-stock" or "outlaw-stock" since it's closer to the concept of a "stock" motor than it is to a "mod" motor.
RussB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 04:24 PM   #40
Tech Lord
 
syndr0me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 5280 Raceway
Posts: 13,140
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussB
now that's a good idea. updates the rules to be in-line with future technology while still allowing old tech.

same thing could apply to what we currently call 19t and mod.

granted, the whole "19t" name would have to change... something like "pro-stock" or "outlaw-stock" since it's closer to the concept of a "stock" motor than it is to a "mod" motor.
It only works if brushless is faster. :-) I think a 19T is faster than 10.5, so it wouldn't work there.

I created a thread called "LiPo Awareness" that I hope will help dispel some of the fear surrounding LiPo. The problem, it turns out, is cheap cells. We should ban cheap cells, but not punish the companies making good cells by lumping them all together.
syndr0me is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 04:33 PM   #41
Tech Addict
 
RussB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Sacramento
Posts: 736
Send a message via MSN to RussB
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by syndr0me
It only works if brushless is faster. :-) I think a 19T is faster than 10.5, so it wouldn't work there.

I created a thread called "LiPo Awareness" that I hope will help dispel some of the fear surrounding LiPo. The problem, it turns out, is cheap cells. We should ban cheap cells, but not punish the companies making good cells by lumping them all together.
until ROAR has rules on this that are strictly enforced by tracks, unfortunately they are all lumped into the same group. with no regulation and enforcement, what's to stop someone from running cheap cells?

when ROAR makes them legal, i'm all for it because i'm sure they will only allow the safe, reputable cells. after all, they are an insurance company.

as for BL vs. BR, at our local track it looks like a 13.5 + sintered rotor has a slight edge over stock. 10.5 (4300) is about a dead heat with a good 19t. but that's outdoor asphalt. it may be a different ballgame with the extra grip of carpet.
RussB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 04:57 PM   #42
Tech Regular
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 304
Trader Rating: 25 (100%+)
Default

I don't know about LIPO yet, but I know ROAR better be looking at making brushless a legal class in 2008. I have run the 10.5 and love it, and I personally don't want to run a brushed motor again. This is a done deal that brushless is going to happen so ROAR better start right now setting up the rules. LIPO on the other hand has drawbacks and I think going to 5 cells is a good idea over switchingto LIPO. I hope more ROAR members speak up and let them know we want some changes for next year.
fred kellner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 06:35 PM   #43
Tech Champion
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Long Island, NY
Posts: 7,211
Trader Rating: 2 (100%+)
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RussB
granted, the whole "19t" name would have to change... something like "pro-stock" or "outlaw-stock" since it's closer to the concept of a "stock" motor than it is to a "mod" motor.
ROAR already calls 19 turn "Super Stock."

Personally I'd rather see it called 27t and 19t. There's nothing stock about a stock motor any more anyway.

And if we get rid of one class I would rather it be 27 turn. Let's have a class for newcomers or those who just want to have fun and everyone has to run the same brushless motor. Far less you can do with a brushless than with a brushed.

Keep 19 turn the way it is and promote it as an intermediate class. A class for serious racers who want to see how they measure up with the pros. And yes let pro drivers run it.

Mod, or better named open with the advent of BL, will still be the best of the best with all the manufacturers pushing their product, and anyone else who think they can keep up.
jiml is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 06:49 PM   #44
Tech Elite
 
yyhayyim's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Weston, FL
Posts: 3,424
Trader Rating: 26 (100%+)
Default Lipo ignorance

What bothers me is how ignorant those that bash Lipo's are! They are still holding on to their antiquated ideas of Lipos from the 90's, and are stuck on 6 cells, and forget to mention how dangerous 6 cell packs have been and still are. They forget to mention that 6 cells when mishandled or not cared for or set up properly, DO FREAKIN BLOW UP, and have done so many a time, cause car and personal damage to their owners and neighbors! The same goes for those who mishandle or improperly use Lipo's...it could swell and go up in flames...but they only focus on the Lipos, and try so hard to discourage its use, when 6 cells are just as dangerous, not to mention extremely bad for the enviroment- where Lipo's are not. But its all about the money- the backwards thinking 6 cell crowds just want to keep reeling in the big bucks- and those who continue to buy them are too stupid to know they are wasting money on those 6 cells, since they litereally degenarate with each ccycle, and every few months better cells are put out by competitors, and one has to always be catching up, wasting more money and precious time, and polluting the enviroment, more, and more...what a joke
__________________
Yohan Hayyim [Associated RC10B4.1]

"Release the Kraken"
yyhayyim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2007, 08:52 PM   #45
Tech Lord
 
syndr0me's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: 5280 Raceway
Posts: 13,140
Trader Rating: 32 (100%+)
Default

I started the LiPo Awareness thread hoping to get some good information out there. People have no excuse for telling half a story to make LiPo sound dangerous and scary when the truth is readily available. Anybody that continues to do so is clearly trying to use fear and misinformation to discourage its adoption, and not keeping an open mind. I honestly don't know what the attachment is NiMH batteries, but it seems to be WAY stronger than brushed motors.

Here's the deal though: NiMH is faster. Not by much, but a brand new NiMH pack should be faster than a LiPo, at least for a few cycles. So, let them race together with weight limits enforced. Make sure the safety issue is addressed to exclude dangerous cells and then run them together. If NiMH is so much better and faster, what's there to be scared of? You just give people another option, right?

Wrong. The NiMH powers know that while the batteries may remain popular at big races, people in the clubs and new users are definitely going to gravitate toward what's cheaper and easier to maintain (LiPo) and NiMH sales are going to plummet. Maybe selling batteries only for big races is enough, but since half of those packs are handed out to team drivers anyway, you can see why NiMH guys would want to keep LiPo out any way possible. Fear? Uncertainty? Doubt? Whatever it takes, just keep LiPo away from the consumers, because once they use it, there's no possible way they'll ever dream of the days when they used NiMH.

I could see brushed motors sticking around to some extent because some guys enjoy tuning them, which is completely understandable. Nobody enjoys buying new batteries when their old ones fade, and that's about all you can do, aside from maybe throwing expensive equipment at them to try and prolong a little bit of their life.
syndr0me is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
1/12 Pan Brushless Lipo Rubber Tire Class? reenmachine Electric On-Road 53 05-18-2012 07:05 PM
2008 LRP SPHERE COMP TC SPEC BRUSHLESS SPEEDO NEW IN BOX nobike R/C Items: For Sale/Trade 35 06-04-2008 07:48 PM
ROAR approves LIPO and Brushless al dente Colorado Racing 12 01-23-2008 11:42 PM
2008 TCS Rules - Brushless and LiPo!!! RandomFellow Electric On-Road 34 12-10-2007 09:44 PM
Who wants to run 1/12 scale Mamba Brushless spec class? GordonFreeman MARCCA Discussion 61 09-03-2005 03:48 PM



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -7. It is currently 12:50 AM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
Powered By: vBulletin v3.9.2.1
Privacy Policy | Terms of Use | Advertise Content © 2001-2011 RCTech.net